KK vs. Huge Raise on Nothing Board

[Coryan]

Okay, besides the obvious question...who the hell plays 44 from UTG and calls a 3XBB raise preflop?

The question I have is...do you ever put your opponent on a set when the board is very UNscary and you have a big pocket pair? I did worry more on the river with the straight possibility...but again, JT from UTG is unlikely. If he had QQ or AA...why limp and call from UTG? And I really didn't put him on 99, 77 or 44. BTW, he was seeing the flop 24% of the time.

Oh well, I think I've made worse calls. But what would you have done?

***** Hand History for Game 4222270667 *****
0/0 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Tue May 09 01:03:20 EDT 2006
Table Reely Mine (real money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: wkclarke ( $24.70)
Seat 2: Coryan ( $40.90)
Seat 3: hitr2345 ( $68.97)
Seat 5: rabbitsfoot_ ( $26.51)
Seat 6: GR1Meval ( $57.17)
Seat 7: DTMracer ( $4.40)
Seat 8: drewcruisin ( $8.75)
Seat 9: tomeve ( $3.59)
Seat 10: Brehon97 ( $12.23)
hitr2345 posts small blind (0.10)
rabbitsfoot_ posts big blind (0.25)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Coryan [ Kh, Ks ]
GR1Meval calls (0.25)
DTMracer folds.
drewcruisin folds.
tomeve folds.
Brehon97 folds.
wkclarke folds.
Coryan raises (0.75) to 0.75
hitr2345 folds.
rabbitsfoot_ folds.
GR1Meval calls (0.50)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4s, 7c, 9d ]
GR1Meval bets (2)
Coryan calls (2)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qd ]
GR1Meval checks.
Coryan bets (3)
GR1Meval raises (15) to 15
Coryan calls (12)
** Dealing River ** : [ 8h ]
GR1Meval bets (10)
Coryan calls (10)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $53.10 | Rake: $2.75
Board: [ 4s 7c 9d Qd 8h ]

wkclarke balance $24.70, didn't bet (folded)
Coryan balance $13.15, lost $27.75 [ Kh Ks ] [ a pair of kings -- Kh,Ks,Qd,9d,8h ]

hitr2345 balance $68.87, lost $0.10 (folded)
YenTung balance $25, sits out
rabbitsfoot_ balance $26.26, lost $0.25 (folded)
GR1Meval balance $82.52, bet $27.75, collected $53.10, net +$25.35 [ 4c 4d ] [ three of a kind, fours -- Qd,9d,4c,4d,4s ]

CORYAN

 

[spore]

You raised to 3xBB. A low pocket pair is certainly a possibility to call that pre-flop. I would have raised a bit more... to about 5xBB. That probably would have cut out the low pocket pair. I limp-in with small-medium pocket pairs alot.. i'll call 1-3x BB and hope to hit the set. It profits in the long run.

So yeah, raise more preflop with pocket kings!

 

[t1riel]

Well, for one thing, you should have raised more preflop. Once he hits his set on the flop, he'll call whatever you raise. That's the beauty of sets. You never see them coming. With a board like that, it's hard to laydown pocket Kings. The checkraise on the turn should have givne you warning flags in your head. So, you should have protected your strong hand with a bigger raise preflop. Once the flop came, you were in serious trouble and you didn't even know it.

 

[Coryan]

I usually do raise more...my typical raise is 4XBB from here. But I had been seeing a lot of folds to my raises due to my tight table image. I had been playing about 17% and didn't want to scare him off...well, I got what I wanted. :frown: Thanks for the feedback on my PF play....I completely agree...

But what about after the flop? Of course HUGE FLAGS went off after his raise...but the question is, what do you do when those flags go off? Could you lay this one down? This is low limit and I have seen folks make plays like this with TPTK. So, I am looking for feedback on the play AFTER the flop.

Thanks,

CORYAN

 

[ChuckTs]

at cash tables, i always raise 4BBs with any hand i'm raising. This disguises the strength of my hand, so opponents cant gauge how strong it is by the size of my bet. It's also enough to sweeten the pot with big hands like KK, and small enough not to be scared raising LP with weaker A9 type hands.
Flop: he overbet the pot. I either put him on a bluff or a very strong hand.
Turn: his check is suspect, and your bet is good, but his reraise should make you think "what is he raising this goddam much for?" i would think either that he hit a 2pr or that he's playing a set kind of strangely.
It's easier to say now that we can all see the results, obviously, but his turn raise is still suspect to me.
River: his bet is very clearly a value bet; he's got a monster hand and he wants you to pay him off. If he had bet like 25 bucks, then i might pay him off thinking he's trying to make a play on me, but only $10 - less than his turn bet - this bet should set off the alarm

 

[Coryan]

Thanks for the analysis ChuckT. Actually, I raise 4XBB about 99% of the time from middle to late position and 3XBB from early position for the same reason...don't want to give away the strength of my hand. But this time I made the wrong decision and varied my raise since folks were folding so much to me. The other time that I vary my PF raises is when the table is loose and there are several players (4 or more) limping in ahead...I will raise 5-8XBB to limit my callers when my hand doesn't do well in multiway play (ie. Big pairs, etc.).

I know that another way to address the problem with everyone folding is to broaden your hand selection and take advantage of the tight image. I have to admit that I am very leary of doing this. I am uncomfortable playing more than my typical (15-20%). This is a definate flaw in my game.

So, ChuckT...am I to assume that you would fold on the river in this situation? Or at least consider folding a reasonable option?

CORYAN

 

[ChuckTs]

well like i said, it's easy for me to say fold the river because we now know what he had.
But when a player bets that much (turn ch-r), then follows with a smaller bet, it just seems to me like a value bet.
I don't know if i would fold, but you have to know when your hand is beat.
here's a great thread about not giving implied odds with big PPs like KK; a very important concept:
https://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=66803&highlight=study

 

[starfall]

He should have had either a hand like a pocket pair or 2 high cards to call in that position (seeing 24% of the flops). Since he'd already put one bet in, the 3xBB meant he only had to put 2xBB in, and if he thought he was probably against AK or the like he was a small favourite, even without hitting, so of course he's going to call heads-up.
After the flop he came out betting. He could be bluffing (don't know how often the guy tries that), but if not the question then is what hands he would have called your bet with that would prompt him to come out betting. AX, possibly, or a pocket pair...
I'd agree that generally this is the kind of situation where you generally end up losing a big pot - you've limited the field, to minimise the chances of someone against you getting something like 2 pair with random cards, and pocket pairs don't hit most of the time, so you generally bet on them not hitting, and think you're good... the only thing that will save you is your read on your opponent - if they only raise with really premium hands, then you can save yourself the money - if they're more capable of bluffing or betting weak hands, then it's hard, really hard, and you just have to suck up the pain.