KK preflop decision

A

alan1983

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This is only other hand i saw villain involved in

full tilt poker Game #5250844663: Table Celadine - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 9:11:24 ET - 2008/02/14
Seat 1: ton999tana ($67.25)
Seat 2: chaipas ($123.80)
Seat 3: JustTrustMeDude ($52.45)
Seat 4: vizer02 ($117.60)
Seat 5: ebawyvKAWY ($20), is sitting out
Seat 6: alan1983 ($152.80)
Seat 7: Chamouth ($100)
Seat 8: musashi0037 ($77.70)
Seat 9: greatstar00 ($21)
chaipas posts the small blind of $0.50
JustTrustMeDude posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to alan1983 [Jc 7d]
vizer02 has 15 seconds left to act
ebawyvKAWY has returned
vizer02 folds
alan1983 folds
Chamouth raises to $3.50
musashi0037 folds
greatstar00 folds
ton999tana calls $3.50
chaipas calls $3
JustTrustMeDude calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [2s 9c 9h]
chaipas checks
JustTrustMeDude bets $7
Chamouth raises to $35
chaipas is sitting out
ton999tana folds
chaipas folds
chaipas stands up
JustTrustMeDude has 15 seconds left to act
JustTrustMeDude has requested TIME
mixtahuxtabl sits down
mixtahuxtabl adds $100
JustTrustMeDude raises to $48.95, and is all in
Chamouth calls $13.95
JustTrustMeDude shows [Td Jh]
Chamouth shows [As Ac]
*** TURN *** [2s 9c 9h] [3s]
*** RIVER *** [2s 9c 9h 3s] [Ad]
JustTrustMeDude shows a pair of Nines
Chamouth shows a full house, Aces full of Nines
Chamouth wins the pot ($108.90) with a full house, Aces full of Nines
JustTrustMeDude is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $111.90 | Rake $3
Board: [2s 9c 9h 3s Ad]
Seat 1: ton999tana (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: chaipas (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: JustTrustMeDude (big blind) showed [Td Jh] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 4: vizer02 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: ebawyvKAWY is sitting out
Seat 6: alan1983 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Chamouth showed [As Ac] and won ($108.90) with a full house, Aces full of Nines
Seat 8: musashi0037 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: greatstar00 didn't bet (folded)



5 hands later:


Seat 2: mixtahuxtabl ($120.45)
Seat 3: JustTrustMeDude ($33)
Seat 4: vizer02 ($100)
Seat 5: ebawyvKAWY ($18.50)
Seat 6: alan1983 ($150.80)
Seat 7: Chamouth ($156.45)
Seat 8: musashi0037 ($77.70)
Seat 9: greatstar00 ($21)
alan1983 has 5 seconds left to act
alan1983 posts the small blind of $0.50
Chamouth posts the big blind of $1
5 seconds left to act
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to alan1983 [Kh Kd]
musashi0037 calls $1
greatstar00 folds
ton999tana folds
mixtahuxtabl folds
vizer02 folds
ebawyvKAWY folds
alan1983 raises to $4
Chamouth has 15 seconds left to act
Chamouth raises to $13
musashi0037 folds
alan1983 raises to $29
Chamouth raises to $156.45, and is all in
alan1983.....?????????
 
tenbob

tenbob

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Hmmmm. Intereresting, against a player who has shown-himself to be playing very straight-forward poker. He seems very anxious to get his stack in the middle here, and we really have to consider just how deep we need to be before we consider folding. I think its here, every time.

My mind says fold, my "clicky" finger snap calls in reality. Im really trying to get there though.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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JustTrustMeDude raises to $48.95, and is all in

Oh boy! :confused: :(

Re KK hand, very very difficult. As per QQ thread earlier today, looks like QQ KK AA or AK. KK or AK less likely as you've got KK yourself.

Would be much easier fold if you had QQ, this is one of those hands where if you fold he flips QQ (or worse!) and if you call he flips AA (and you say "I knew it!). I'd have to call here, but would have one hand on the power cord of the computer!
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Fold. You're 150 bbs deep here and he seems all too willing to get his stack in the middle. If we're at 100 bbs I'm much more likely to call (just as likely to see AA) but I just have to think we can find a better spot and make the tough fold.
 
Jillychemung

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Can you put him on just AA? Against QQ+,AK you are 57/43 fav and you have to put in $121.80 to win $302.60. I couldn't lay this down.
 
t1riel

t1riel

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One one hand can beat you. Yes, it means your tournament life but I don't think I can fold the second bets hand preflop, especially heads-up.
 
H

hypergenius

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if you're sure he has the AA, fold, in the long term you can be bluffed by AK,QQ, , but if he's tight, he cannot do that with AK
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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One one hand can beat you. Yes, it means your tournament life but I don't think I can fold the second bets hand preflop, especially heads-up.

i think people are taking this "tournament life" thing too far. it's a cash game :p
 
vanquish

vanquish

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i snapcall here. i mean after all, my tournament life is on the line. (its actually not on the line here)
 
allndave

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for a cash game ,i think it would be an easy fold blind aren't going to go up and why play for all your money preflop. just my opinion
 
vanquish

vanquish

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for a cash game ,i think it would be an easy fold blind aren't going to go up and why play for all your money preflop. just my opinion


what lol? cash games are about equity and getting it in with edge, not playing for 'all your money'
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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What did Phil Gordon say? The fourth raise means aces?

I know it's unlikely he's got them twice in five or six hands, but WTF else takes that line pre-flop? Maybe KK, but I don't think AK / QQ / anything else can.

My brain's saying this oughta be a fold as well, but I know my hand's already clicked call so... sigh.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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um am i the only one who noticed this is blind vs. blind? yeah he'll have AA a decent chunk, but he has AK or QQ wayy too often to fold here. QQ and AK are practically the nuts in a blind vs. blind battle and should usually be played as such. being a little deeper than full buy-ins changes the situation a bit, but not enough to make it a fold. there are spots where a KK pf fold is at least considerable but this BvB is not one of them. so don't feel bad that he woke up with AA and you went busto
 
A

alan1983

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what about this one


Seat 1: otbdave ($99.50)
Seat 2: GIVINcashAWAY ($85.50)
Seat 3: Play2Win_84 ($65)
Seat 4: BigTalkingHead ($102.85)
Seat 5: HammyHam13 ($94.25)
Seat 6: alan1983 ($246.90)
Seat 7: ohcowboy12go ($104.30)
Seat 8: Moustache Man ($99.25)
Seat 9: MasterPUA ($98.50)
HammyHam13 posts the small blind of $0.50
alan1983 has 5 seconds left to act
alan1983 posts the big blind of $1
5 seconds left to act
Play2Win_84 posts $1
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to alan1983 [Kd Kc]
ohcowboy12go has 15 seconds left to act
ohcowboy12go folds
Moustache Man folds
MasterPUA folds
otbdave raises to $99.50, and is all in
GIVINcashAWAY folds
Play2Win_84 folds
BigTalkingHead folds
HammyHam13: WTF
HammyHam13 has 15 seconds left to act
HammyHam13 folds
alan1983 has 15 seconds left to act
alan1983 has requested TIME
 
tenbob

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um am i the only one who noticed this is blind vs. blind? yeah he'll have AA a decent chunk, but he has AK or QQ wayy too often to fold here. QQ and AK are practically the nuts in a blind vs. blind battle and should usually be played as such. being a little deeper than full buy-ins changes the situation a bit, but not enough to make it a fold. there are spots where a KK pf fold is at least considerable but this BvB is not one of them. so don't feel bad that he woke up with AA and you went busto

Nice spot Sir. Thats why I usually put this in the OP.

Dunno its still 150BB deep, but blind vs blind I change this from fold to call (usually)
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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the second one you posted is never a fold either. i've seen people get looked up openshoving at 200NL where they had AK or JJ. a lot of people play bad and a lot of people just like to gamble. most players aren't winning players and most players don't post on poker forums like we do. there are better ways to use your time poker-wise than looking for spots to fold KK preflop. if you ran into AA on both of em, chalk it up to running bad and move on
 
A

alan1983

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i folded first one and second one was AA and tbh i only called second one because i had folded first lol
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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The second one I snapcall - even without reads, we have to be ahead of villain's range (I'd figure JJ+ / AK) and if we run into AA... well, we're unlucky, and also villain played it uber-poorly.

But the first one - do QQ or AK (or worse) really put in a fourth raise, even blind vs blind?

I didn't ask before, but it's probably pertinent now, what's our table image like?
 
A

alan1983

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Oz, i was playing pretty normal, i think i reraised maybe once and i dont think he was at the table then even. Definitely nothing that could give him the idea im reraising light here.

Combu, i think youre right in theory. But when it comes 2 the hands ive seen, it was AA like 99% of the time. Just one time i split with KK.

Even the 2nd hand, the only other time ive seen someone open shove a 100 NL full buyin was AA (that was me and i got it 1st hand on the table)

If this was a shorter stack i could assume he was taking a shot, but i dont think youll find many people (Except maybe on saturday nights) just shoving 100 with weaker hands
 
heatfan03

heatfan03

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its KK 2nd best hand PF. Get the goods in there bro what more can u ask for.
 
C

Czech Razor

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I call fairly quickly because it's b vs. b and I'm hoping he didn't get dealt AA for the second time in under 10 hands.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Oz, i was playing pretty normal, i think i reraised maybe once and i dont think he was at the table then even. Definitely nothing that could give him the idea im reraising light here.

OK - that probably counts both ways then: because he didn't see the other hands, he doesn't know that you're rarely re-raising, but he's got no reason to think that you'd be doing this light either.

I dunno, I wouldn't want to make a habit of folding KK preflop either, but when we're facing a fourth raise... I've gotta ask myself what hands do that.

Your first raise from the small blind could mean anything - as could his re-raise. But when you raise again, you're telling him you've got a hand: he's pretty much got to put you on AA / KK / QQ / AK and maybe JJ / AQ depending on how loose he thinks you are. Which means to shove over the top of you villain is represnting a hand that at least stands a good chance against that range. Am I wrong about this?
 
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