KK Early Pos., Button Calls Raise...

Stick66

Stick66

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Steven's numbers at the time were about 25/5/0.5 over about 30 hands (semi-loose, semi-weak, fish-ish). He seemed to like to see flops and bail when he didn't hit.

When he called my 4-times-the-big-blind raise, I figured he was just taking advantage of the button position to fish for his flop. The flop was not too dangerous, so I bet about 3/4 pot. With his call, I put him on one card to a straight draw. Probably suited with a high card.

I didn't put him on a 4 for trips on the turn, so I bet 2/3 the pot. His raise really threw me. I know it was only $5 more, but what about the river? He'll have around $8 left. Does that fact commit me here? Does he have a 4 and my only outs are 2 Kings? Did he make a straight or a boat already? Seeing his previous weakness but now showing strength, should I lay down my KK and save $13? Or is this guy capable of making a play with a draw or just air?


POKERSTARS GAME #10656517422: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/06/27 - 23:35:27 (ET)
Table 'Lucia' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: knix98 ($7.75 in chips)
Seat 2: kingcobraz ($7.55 in chips)
Seat 3: TerminatorAK ($39.35 in chips)
Seat 4: MrSticker66 ($29.95 in chips)
Seat 5: kingnat ($23.90 in chips)
Seat 6: DonkeyPuppy ($21.05 in chips)
Seat 7: Vanhalen008 ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 8: Stevenrh1 ($19.60 in chips)
Seat 9: Foghorn63 ($24.20 in chips)
Foghorn63: posts small blind $0.10
knix98: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrSticker66 [Kd Ks]
kingcobraz: folds
TerminatorAK: folds
MrSticker66: raises $0.75 to $1
kingnat: folds
DonkeyPuppy: folds
Vanhalen008: folds
Stevenrh1: calls $1
Foghorn63: folds
knix98: folds
*** FLOP *** [6s 3c 4h]
MrSticker66: bets $1.75
Stevenrh1: calls $1.75
*** TURN *** [6s 3c 4h] [4d]
MrSticker66: bets $4
Stevenrh1: raises $5 to $9
MrSticker66: ...
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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Something here tells me he has a boat, I think calling here will commit you to call on the river. I'd fold this personally. Overpairs are pretty, but when you're up against an underpair that caught a set/boat it don't look so hot.
 
Mehman

Mehman

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i don't think you have enough info on the guy to make a good read on what hand he has, the way the hand has been played i'd say he called you with ace rag i'd say A5s and he's got the gutshot straight draw or a lower PP then yours TT-QQ and he's trying to use the 4 as the scare card to push you away, i'd call imo.
 
tosborn

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What has he seen from you? Have you folded to a big reraise recently? Are you playing a tight game, showing down only pairs and painted cards?

Has villain shown down little suited connectors or Ace/little? With his stats I really think you are behind here. He hasn't shown enough aggression in the past to justify that he is trying to make a play.

Unless he has seen you lay down to a reraise in the past, fold.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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I don't like folding this at all.

We're only really afraid of precisely three hands, 66/44/33. We're ahead on the occasions villain is bluffing and drawing dead or very slim (say 10% of the time), and it's entirely feasible that a weak player could play JJ-77/55 as villain has.
 
tosborn

tosborn

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I don't like folding this at all.

We're only really afraid of precisely three hands, 66/44/33. We're ahead on the occasions villain is bluffing and drawing dead or very slim (say 10% of the time)

Add to those hands any 4. A4 or K4 (kind of weak but at the lower end of the range). 34 or 45 sooooooted (possible). Tricky AA (doubtful).

We are only ahead of A6 or A3, pocket pair bigger than board, and air.

and it's entirely feasible that a weak player could play JJ-77/55 as villain has

You are correct. If we are going to play KK it is entirely possible for villain to play QQ-77 (not much difference).

Unless villain has made a similar play before or he has seen me fold to a reraise I lay this down. If villain is bluffing I'll get his money later.
 
Bombjack

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These hands are tricky to fold, but it's fairly obvious what kind of hand you have from your betting. Versus an aggressive opponent I don't mind shoving, but with an aggression factor of 0.5 you can probably fold it. Maybe better if you don't put the results in original post?
 
ChuckTs

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I'm with Chris. This is a smaller (two-) pair than yours enough of the time to stick him in here.

I'd obviously like to have better reads on the guy; when someone raises that small, it means something significant. I mean it'll either be a minimum-cost bluff some of the time, or it'll be a please-call-me raise with the FH or trips or whatever. Reads could definitely help out there.
 
Bombjack

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I thought you said he had a 4? OK I misread it. Will be interested to hear what the results were.
 
gord962

gord962

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I've played these type of players at Stars many times and they aren't raising with just over pairs. They wouldn't raise with AA in this scenario. I would bet all the rice in China that he has trips or better. Of course, I wouldn't be able to trust my read and end up putting him all in right then and there and be left with $10. :(
 
Bombjack

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BTW I would assume he's playing the :10d4::4d4:, but the [4d] is on the board. Maybe he's playing its evil cousin, :10s4::4s4:.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Add to those hands any 4. A4 or K4 (kind of weak but at the lower end of the range). 34 or 45 sooooooted (possible). Tricky AA (doubtful).

We are only ahead of A6 or A3, pocket pair bigger than board, and air.

Even with a slight 'fishy' read I doubt a 25VPIP% player is calling an EP raise on the button with A4 and especially not with K4. Of course it's possible, anything's possible, but I don't consider it likely enough to be worth thinking extensively over.
 
gord962

gord962

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A4s from the button just might be a calling hand at 25% VP$IP for a lot of folks hoping to catch a flush.
 
F

Freakakanus

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I don't like folding this TBH..... I think you need to call and then check/call the river.
 
Bombjack

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I don't like folding this TBH..... I think you need to call and then check/call the river.
On the river you have to either shove or check-fold, never check-call. If you check-call you're in a negative freeroll situation. He's unlikely to bet with anything you beat, or to not bet with anything you don't, but may call with hands you do. If you're calling anyway, you must shove the river.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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On the river you have to either shove or check-fold, never check-call. If you check-call you're in a negative freeroll situation. He's unlikely to bet with anything you beat, or to not bet with anything you don't, but may call with hands you do. If you're calling anyway, you must shove the river.
Welp that's what I did, even when an Ace hit the river. But with his past tightness, I think I should have folded the turn. Even a lowly 4 would have crushed me. I just kept thinking "He missed his draw", but I was wrong.

POKERSTARS GAME #10656517422: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/06/27 - 23:35:27 (ET)
Table 'Lucia' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: knix98 ($7.75 in chips)
Seat 2: kingcobraz ($7.55 in chips)
Seat 3: TerminatorAK ($39.35 in chips)
Seat 4: MrSticker66 ($29.95 in chips)
Seat 5: kingnat ($23.90 in chips)
Seat 6: DonkeyPuppy ($21.05 in chips)
Seat 7: Vanhalen008 ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 8: Stevenrh1 ($19.60 in chips)
Seat 9: Foghorn63 ($24.20 in chips)
Foghorn63: posts small blind $0.10
knix98: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrSticker66 [Kd Ks]
kingcobraz: folds
TerminatorAK: folds
MrSticker66: raises $0.75 to $1
kingnat: folds
DonkeyPuppy: folds
Vanhalen008: folds
Stevenrh1: calls $1
Foghorn63: folds
knix98: folds
*** FLOP *** [6s 3c 4h]
MrSticker66: bets $1.75
Stevenrh1: calls $1.75
*** TURN *** [6s 3c 4h] [4d]
MrSticker66: bets $4
Stevenrh1: raises $5 to $9
MrSticker66: calls $5
*** RIVER *** [6s 3c 4h 4d] [As]
MrSticker66: bets $8
Stevenrh1: calls $7.85 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MrSticker66: shows [Kd Ks] (two pair, Kings and Fours)
Stevenrh1: shows [Ad Ac] (a full house, Aces full of Fours)
Stevenrh1 collected $37.65 from pot

 
Schatzdog

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That's a pretty tough hand all up. He played his Aces quite nicely I think. The way it was betting I would've put opponent on an overpair but smaller than ours like 8/9/10's.

I don't really have anything too constructive to say about it, but I'm going all-in on the river about 85% of the time here.
 
S

stevenrh1

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You guys are funny... maybe your program should update my numbers to reflect not such a "fishy weak player" after that play.
 
stormswa

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You guys are funny... maybe your program should update my numbers to reflect not such a "fishy weak player" after that play.

yea because you make such informative 1st posts here. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Stick66

Stick66

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Steven's numbers at the time were about 25/5/0.5 over about 30 hands (semi-loose, semi-weak, fish-ish). He seemed to like to see flops and bail when he didn't hit.

You guys are funny... maybe your program should update my numbers to reflect not such a "fishy weak player" after that play.
"Semi-" and "-ish" both mean "somewhat like" or "nearly like". Nobody called you "fishy weak".

You have to adimt that you played your Aces a bit weakly in the face of a paired and draw-filled board, which is very dangerous to do. Your aggression factor of 0.5 is very passive and suggests a lot of post-flop folds. These FACTS put you NEAR the categories of "fish" and "weak". I repeat...NEAR. This is fact according to any poker expert you query, programmed OR human.

The reason you are NOT fully a "fish" or "weak" is because a fish would have a higher VP$IP than 25 and a weak player would have a lower PF Raise % than 5. So don't put yourself fully in those categories yet. I sure haven't.

And after all that:

Welcome to the forum! Glad to have you here!
 
Mojomax747

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Yeah, i reckon if i googled myself ( i have done, as have many here ) and found that i had been branded semi-loose, semi-weak, and fish-ish in some poker forum i never heard of before, i might be inclined to go take a look too.

Hell, i might even post in the thread where my pokerstars username was mentioned.
I might even say something that is not rude and completely harmless in my own defense, for my very 1st post.

Then i might read that my 1st post wasnt informative enough to grace that forum.

Then i might decide that if my harmless post was going to get flamed for no apparent reason other than it wasnt informative enough , "do i really want to hang around here any longer?"

Then i might leave never to come back after getting the impression that thats how things work around there.

:(
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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You guys are funny... maybe your program should update my numbers to reflect not such a "fishy weak player" after that play.


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