JJ; when do you raise to define your/opponent's hand?

NineLions

NineLions

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Standard raise from MP, called before me, I'm in LP with JJ. No reads, because the table was kinda boring so I started doing other things on the computer while I was playing (I gotta train myself to check HUD whenever I'm in a hand).


pokerstars Game #9225842202: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/04/03 - 01:06:00 (ET)
Table 'Baboquivari II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: susy_siena ($6.15 in chips)
Seat 2: Frogholler ($9.70 in chips)
Seat 3: ScremonDemon ($6.85 in chips)
Seat 4: yummybabe ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Ninelions ($12.15 in chips)
Seat 6: picst12002 ($4.55 in chips)
Seat 7: KSu84 ($4.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Torax_T ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 9: DawsonS64 ($18.25 in chips)
KSu84: posts small blind $0.05
Torax_T: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ninelions [Js Jh]
DawsonS64: calls $0.10
susy_siena: folds
Frogholler: calls $0.10
ScremonDemon: raises $0.30 to $0.40
yummybabe: calls $0.40
Ninelions: calls $0.40

I thought about raising here to define my hand, and everyone else's, but while I don't think twice about doing so with AA or KK, with QQ or JJ I'm hesitant. I probably should have; AA/KK would repop, QQ might repop, or even fold thinking I have AA/KK, both being good results for me at this point. I'm not sure what AK would do.


KSu84: folds
Torax_T: folds
DawsonS64: folds
Frogholler: folds
*** FLOP *** [6c 2d 5s]
ScremonDemon: bets $1.60
yummybabe: folds
Ninelions: calls $1.60

I read overpair, but the flop is so low the overpair could be a range yet which was the main reason I just called. Any Q, K, or A on the flop and I would have been gone. On the other hand, I might be on a 65s. Again I'm not defining anything by calling. I thought about raising for definition, but it seems less useful at this point.


*** TURN *** [6c 2d 5s] K♥
ScremonDemon: bets $2
Ninelions: calls $2

Doesn't seem like a KK bet, but if he's afraid I have KK, I don't know if that's a good amount to bet. I wouldn't have called his flop bet with AK/KQ. Maybe he has QQ and wants to find out where he's at?


I dunno, my lack of reraising probably has him confused. I'm either on 65s, or a donk calling with a medium pocket pair. :)

In hindsight, I probably should have reraised on the flop. Any disagreements?
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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yes, raise the flop. you are behind everything but TT/AQ here.
 
Tammy

Tammy

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I think you played this WAY too passively. I would have raised preflop, and again raised the flop. If you get reraised a substantial amount, you can get out of the way. But to just call, you don't have the info you need.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Sigh. I know. Essentially I was almost playing these for set value, planning to fold when the expected A,K,Q hit on the flop, or, get excited if a J hit.

But the flop was so low that it threw me. Hit bet said overpair, but I didn't know how big of an overpair so I just called. Probably another one of those situations where a bad preflop decision fed a bad flop decision.

.
 
alexanderwoo1

alexanderwoo1

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You should have check-raised on flop because i don't think he would raise preflop with a low pocket pair.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Part of the reason that I posted this hand was for a public flogging.

This to offset the fact that I spiked a J on the river. Villain checked, I bet him all-in, he called, HUD showed he had AA, I apologized.

I don't want the monetary reward to let me think that I played this brilliantly.
 
dj11

dj11

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But maybe u really did? In the end, You got all his money into the pot, and took it.
The big difference is you would have given villian the opportunity to really stress u out.
Hindsight suggests he would have stayed regardless of the board.
I too play jj conservativly these days.
Once you decided he did not have KK, (and possibly no K at all), you must have felt you probably still had the best hand. Not to over rate feelings, but they are a manifestation of all things internalized, and your gut feelings suggested you had him beat.

Thank the gods for suck outs, every now and then we get to be that suck out.

You put yourself in a position to get lucky, one of the tenants of good poker.
 
Suited Frenzy

Suited Frenzy

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Reraise the Flop

I would've reraised. Possibly reraised all in depending on what his initial bet was. That pot was sufficient enough to take after he bet on the flop. I would'nt want any suckouts on the turn so i would've reraised all in on the flop.
 
J

joeeagles

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I would've reraised preflop since you had position, but don't be too hard on yourself because JJ Is a hand that should be played cautiously or, put simply, not overplayed. Since you didn't reraise preflop, you could have done it on the flop for info. But, again, don't be hard on yourself, particularly if JJ has cost you alot in the past.
 
Vintage82

Vintage82

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I re-raise the flop to around $1.2-$1.5 depending on what we can get away with.

I think AK is likely to call here but with a probing bet on the flop I think you can get them to fold.

I think if a player has QQ he's likely to call you down because of your aggression & despite the K so on the turn I want to keep control of the pot by keeping the bets low (between $1-2) and fold to a check/raise on the turn/river.

I would've reraised. Possibly reraised all in depending on what his initial bet was. That pot was sufficient enough to take after he bet on the flop. I would'nt want any suckouts on the turn so i would've reraised all in on the flop.

I don't like this at all. Your only getting called by hands that beat you and your not even close to having a lock on the hand.
 
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