Was it an +EV fold?

D

dak76

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Mar 26, 2008
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Hi
This is my first hand post experience
I folded this hand, based on river action, but not sure if it was a correct move, in a +EV perspective

Stacks:
* MP2 with $17.30
* CO with $4.25
* BTN with $20.00
* SB with $35.85
* BB with $58.55
* UTG with $28.15
* MP1 with $36.90
hand.pl

Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
Site: pokerstars
* * Dealt to BB:T♥ J♣
* * Sklansky group 5
Preflop:
* * UTG calls [$0.25]
* * 3 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$0.25]
* * SB calls [$0.15]
* * Hero: checks
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: $1
Flop:
* * 9♥ 8♦ 9♦
* * SB bets [$0.50]
* * Hero raises $1 to $1.50
* * 1 players fold.
* * BTN raises $1.50 to $3
* * SB calls [$2.50]
* * Hero calls [$1.50]
* * Total folds this street: 1
* * Potsize: $10

Possible flush and str8 drawers after me, maybe someone hit trips, I'm seeing turn with OESD
Turn:

* * 7♠
* * SB bets [$6]
* * Hero calls [$6]
* * BTN calls [$6]
* * Potsize: $28

Hit my nut straight, and SB bet nearly 2/3 pot.
I'm calling to keep pot controlled, my opponents have shown strength, would go AI if someone re-raised.
Also if someone hits flush on river... no more badbeats please...
River:
* * A♠
* * SB bets [$26.60] [ all-in ]
* * 1 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$10.75] [ all-in ]
* * Total folds this street: 1
Results:

My read is that he reeeally hit something, maybe fullen with A9 or quads, took a lot time to fold but did it.

But I would like some thoughts about my play, did I play it badly, was it a good fold, a profitable decision?
Thanks

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Dwilius

Dwilius

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I think pot control has to start earlier. I wouldn't raise on straight draw on a paired flop with flush draw. Each subsequent bet at a pot becomes larger. After calling the turn the player betting has less left than there is in the pot and the other much less, not much pot control.
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

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It seems like whenever I make a fold like that, one player will have A/Q and the other will have some stupid K/K.

What I don't like is that the SB has $35 in a game where the buy-in is $25. And often a winning player isn't going to shove with less than a set here, so the full house is a real possibility.
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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I would raise the turn all day, you're only really scared of 88 or 77, maybe 89. I don't know why you would want to be controlling the pot size with that hand, I'd probably be trying to get most of my money in.

And I seriously doubt I would have found a fold on the river but it does look like someone has a full house.
 
D

dak76

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I think pot control has to start earlier. I wouldn't raise on straight draw on a paired flop with flush draw. Each subsequent bet at a pot becomes larger. After calling the turn the player betting has less left than there is in the pot and the other much less, not much pot control.
Earlier you say? Do you mean playing passive in that flop and trying to see a cheap turn by calling, even in 4-way pot?
I do agree with you in general D'wilius, just not sure if it applies here as a good move.
I bet at BB mainly because it was 4-way limpers pot and needed some information, wanted middle pairs to fold in case I hit a pair, cards that would split the pot etc and also, I could increase my representing range.

The table was tight, I was feeling ok... would like to know your opinions on flop move please

I would raise the turn all day
But I would be called by a better hand, ok trips also, draws I don't know, he has less than the pot... don't know
The thing is, I think it's a risky flip, there are a few outs against me, why bet a hole buy-in on this flip...
But again I don't if it's correct to go this way, thoughts are appreciated

daK
 
Dwilius

Dwilius

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Agreed you got information from your raise on the flop and it was the reraise that really started building the pot. If played passively you might have seen showdown for just few $ more. I'd push turn if it was a tournament but its tough decision with money behind you. Its also a likely situation after all the flop action, you hit your card, no scare cards came and you still had to fold.
I'm guessing sb had same hand as you (or flopped FH) and other couldn't let go of trips. The outcome is hidden, meaning I can look it up?
 
Last edited:
Dwilius

Dwilius

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Since your raising the flop for information, I want to say fold to the reraise. I doubt I could do it in play but you can't think J or Q will be good anymore so there's only 6 cards we want to see. You're getting almost 6 to 1 to call but less than 6 to 1 to hit straight/no flush possible next card and would still have to dodge the river.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Hi
This is my first hand post experience
I folded this hand, based on river action, but not sure if it was a correct move, in a +EV perspective
First of all, maybe just nitpicking, but a fold is ALWAYS 0 ev.
Stacks:
* MP2 with $17.30
* CO with $4.25
* BTN with $20.00
* SB with $35.85
* BB with $58.55
* UTG with $28.15
* MP1 with $36.90
hand.pl

Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
Site: Pokerstars
* * Dealt to BB:T♥ J♣
* * Sklansky group 5
Preflop:
* * UTG calls [$0.25]
* * 3 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$0.25]
* * SB calls [$0.15]
* * Hero: checks
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: $1
Flop:
* * 9♥ 8♦ 9♦
* * SB bets [$0.50]
* * Hero raises $1 to $1.50
* * 1 players fold.
* * BTN raises $1.50 to $3
* * SB calls [$2.50]
* * Hero calls [$1.50]
* * Total folds this street: 1
* * Potsize: $10

Possible flush and str8 drawers after me, maybe someone hit trips, I'm seeing turn with OESD
Turn:

* * 7♠
* * SB bets [$6]
* * Hero calls [$6]
* * BTN calls [$6]
* * Potsize: $28

Hit my nut straight, and SB bet nearly 2/3 pot.
I'm calling to keep pot controlled, my opponents have shown strength, would go AI if someone re-raised.
Aren't these contradictory? If you want the pot controlled, that usually means you're folding to a pot committing raise. This strategy basically keeps it small when your opponents want it small but you're going to make it big if your opponents want it big. You need to pick one or the other but this is either a raise or you'll be folding to a raise imo. I would push this hard, possibly a shove. Really dangerous board, players at this level will stack with a flush draw sometimes and of course a 9 is a good amount of his range, betting hard because of all these draws.
Also if someone hits flush on river... no more badbeats please...
River:
* * A♠
* * SB bets [$26.60] [ all-in ]
* * 1 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$10.75] [ all-in ]
* * Total folds this street: 1
Results:

My read is that he reeeally hit something, maybe fullen with A9 or quads, took a lot time to fold but did it.

But I would like some thoughts about my play, did I play it badly, was it a good fold, a profitable decision?
Thanks

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I think this is a good fold. You don't beat a lot of hands that are happy stacking here. The flush hit, a boat has you, hell even AA is a good possibility here. I still think you need to shove this turn, but as played decent fold. It's marginal so I don't think calling or folding would be terrible. We see a lot of 9's here I think along with full boat/quads and rivered flushes.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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There's three-to-a-flush on the river? I'm confused about the hand history.

Honestly, this is going to be AK vs. Q9 often enough that I call this shove on the river, swear "I knew it" when he turns over A-9 and reload. However, if the flush got there as well (which I can't see right now), I'm mucking since there's suddenly a lot more hands that beat us, and SB would be just a little bit more spazzy to shove all-in with just trips on a very scary board like that.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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There's three-to-a-flush on the river? I'm confused about the hand history.

Honestly, this is going to be AK vs. Q9 often enough that I call this shove on the river, swear "I knew it" when he turns over A-9 and reload. However, if the flush got there as well (which I can't see right now), I'm mucking since there's suddenly a lot more hands that beat us, and SB would be just a little bit more spazzy to shove all-in with just trips on a very scary board like that.

Oh wow you're right, the flush draw was a diamond flush draw and the spade hit the river. For some reason I thought this was a flush. Now I agree, I think we have to call this.
 
dj11

dj11

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If the pair scared you on the flop, then was the time to fold. You made the decision they to chase your OESD. So, why, would you go belly up when you HIT?

This is a psychosis we all have to deal with. Fear of success gets trumped by a fear of failure.

I'm raising that turn, and maybe reraising every chance I get after that.

The paired board is of course a problem, but trips are more likely than the boat. A busted flush draw is more likely than trips!

There are times when we have to suck up an improbable loss and sigh "that's poker". IMO, this is when we test that.
 
D

dak76

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Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Total posts
5
Results

Hi
Thank you all for your opinions. This was a great experience for me.

Results:
SB shows a full house, Nines full of Sevens:
9♣ 7♣
BTN shows a full house, Nines full of Aces:
A♥ 9♠
BTN collected $47.10 from pot

I'm guessing sb had same hand as you (or flopped FH) and other couldn't let go of trips.
Congratz mr. Negreanu ;)
D'wilius said:
You're getting almost 6 to 1 to call but less than 6 to 1 to hit straight/no flush possible next card and would still have to dodge the river.
You're right, fold to the re-raise should have been my action on flop. Again thank you for the insights.
zachvac said:
This strategy basically keeps it small when your opponents want it small but you're going to make it big if your opponents want it big. [VERY INTERESTING TY] You need to pick one or the other but this is either a raise or you'll be folding to a raise imo. I would push this hard, possibly a shove.
Yes, raise or fold on the turn.
But it was the NUT str8... for me a psychological hard fold, and scary push after seeing strength. Made a fishy call, I really need to depth concept this.
I guess it can be a major leak these week turn calls...

Again, thank you all for your opinions, somehow I'm a better player after this experience

cya at the tables
 
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