Idiot, or unlucky?

E

ez2cy

Enthusiast
Ok folks, first time I've ever done this, so please be gentle. I've read a ton of books, forums etc. Can't seem to get past the "break even" threshold. Typical hand that I seem to lose some cash on and not sure if it's my play, or just getting unlucky. You tell me!

Stage #518689734: Holdem No Limit $0.25 - 2006-12-16 07:34:18 (ET)
Table: BAYLOR AVE (real money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - WANNAGOTIBET ($49.55 in chips)
Seat 4 - PLATINUM4 ($52.50 in chips)
Seat 5 - SPANKY1001 ($11.45 in chips)
Seat 6 - JEDKLAMPIT ($9.10 in chips)
Seat 1 - VARIANCE102 ($41.60 in chips)
Seat 2 - DD ($10.45 in chips)
PLATINUM4 - Posts small blind $0.10
SPANKY1001 - Posts big blind $0.25
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to JEDKLAMPIT [Qc Qd]
JEDKLAMPIT - Raises $1 to $1
VARIANCE102 - Folds
DD - Folds
WANNAGOTIBET - Folds
PLATINUM4 - Calls $0.90
SPANKY1001 - Folds
*** FLOP *** [9s 5s 7c]
PLATINUM4 - All-In $51.50
JEDKLAMPIT - All-In $8.10

I get flat called here, so is he slow playing Aces or Kings? I figger it's worth the gamble. I'll post the rest of the hand after you folks kill me....LOL
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
Awards
1
Well, 10x the BB is usually considered a bit too big a raise, especially for a good hand like QQ, but you have to call here.
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
Id have called probably.

He may have hit a set (would exlpain his call preflop), or had higher pair (doubt he had the str8), but with no overcards on flop pair of queens is still worth playing.

Ill worry when ace hits flop, yes. But if im gonna fold pair of queens everytime someone decides to raise (some catch a piece with A9 and go all-in), ill never make any chips with it!
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

Legend
I'm not known as a good at reading people but I would put him on a high flush draw. Pocket pair is possible so watch out for three of a kind. It's a gamble worth taking in my opinion.
 
M

myxiplx

Rock Star
Difficult to say without knowing more about platinum's playstyle. Do they regularly go all in with any kind of hand?

You're playing with 1/5 the max buy in here, is that deliberate, or have you lost that much? If you've lost it my first thought on seeing the all-in move is that he's flopped a monster and thinks you're loose enough to call.

But without information on how they play it's tricky. Your preflop raise looks good, after the flop it's impossible to say what his all in means. It could be the BB being aggressive on a low flop and betting big to bluff you out, they may have hit a monster, or even a good draw.

Call if you feel like gambling, and use it as an opportunity to make notes on your opponent.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
He may have hit a set

Maybe, but that seems like a really weird way to play it, don't you think? To just push immediately on that kind of flop, practically begging to get no value for your set. I'd be more worried about slowplayed AA or KK, but that's kind of a weird way to play that as well. As someone said, a high flush draw seems likely. I have to call here, because I think most hands that beat QQ don't just straight push here, although it's certainly possible because at these limits people can act pretty strangely.
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
yeah but maybe he put his opponent at high pair and didnt want to give him a chance of hitting his set too, maybe... sometimes some prefer to take it right there, dunno really.

My best guess is set or jj or tt in this case, but since ez2cy is implying he ended up losing, i guess its either set or higher pair.

Unfortunate to run into higher pockets with qq..
 
E

ez2cy

Enthusiast
Staight? I can't put him on that at all. He's very tight, wouldn't have called the preflop bet. Set? Can't put him on that, as he's made to much money to push me off with a hand that is surely ahead. Flush draw? No idea why a TA would push on just a draw, doesn't make sense to me. AA or KK slowplayed? Seems the most logical to me as the allin screams he doesn't want me to draw to beat him without paying. Anyway...here's the hand.

Stage #518689734: Holdem No Limit $0.25 - 2006-12-16 07:34:18 (ET)
Table: BAYLOR AVE (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - WANNAGOTIBET ($49.55 in chips)
Seat 4 - PLATINUM4 ($52.50 in chips)
Seat 5 - SPANKY1001 ($11.45 in chips)
Seat 6 - JEDKLAMPIT ($9.10 in chips)
Seat 1 - VARIANCE102 ($41.60 in chips)
Seat 2 - DD ($10.45 in chips)
PLATINUM4 - Posts small blind $0.10
SPANKY1001 - Posts big blind $0.25
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to JEDKLAMPIT [Qc Qd]
JEDKLAMPIT - Raises $1 to $1
VARIANCE102 - Folds
DD - Folds
WANNAGOTIBET - Folds
PLATINUM4 - Calls $0.90
SPANKY1001 - Folds
*** FLOP *** [9s 5s 7c]
PLATINUM4 - All-In $51.50
JEDKLAMPIT - All-In $8.10
PLATINUM4 - returned ($43.40) : not called
*** TURN *** [9s 5s 7c] [10s]
*** RIVER *** [9s 5s 7c 10s] [9c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PLATINUM4 - Shows [Qs As] (Flush, ace high)
JEDKLAMPIT - Shows [Qc Qd] (Two Pair, queens and nines)
PLATINUM4 Collects $17.55 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($18.45) | Rake ($0.90)
Board [9s 5s 7c 10s 9c]
Seat 1: VARIANCE102 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: DD Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: WANNAGOTIBET (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: PLATINUM4 (small blind) won Total ($17.55) All-In HI:($17.55) with Flush, ace high [Qs As - P:As,P:Qs,B:10s,B:9s,B:5s]
Seat 5: SPANKY1001 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: JEDKLAMPIT HI:lost with Two Pair, queens and nines [Qc Qd - P:Qd,P:Qc,B:9s,B:9c,B:10s]
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
I would call every time, and be favourite every time, like you were here!

The reason he pushes with a draw is because he thinks he's favourite, and wants to take down the pot whether he hits his draw or not. From his point of view he has 15 outs to make a flush or top pair with top/2nd kicker, or a flush (9 spades + 3 Queens + 3 Aces). 14+ outs makes him a favourite. More importantly, he can take down the pot right here, and not have to worry about getting the right odds when you bet the Turn, people making straights, or the action drying up when the third Club comes.

In fact he doesn't have all the outs he thinks he does, because one of his cards is a Queen and you have two of them. If he had [as][ks] he'd be a slight favourite over your Queens, but since he could have AT-AK, you're ahead of his range, so call. You are in fact 53% to win.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
wow i thought maybe a suited gapper like 810s, what a terrible play with AQs. i think i would have probably laid it down if he bet into me like that
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Btw in low limits and Sit and Goes you'll sometimes see people go all-in here with A9.
 
D

Dingodaddy23

Guest
reload before the cards are dealt. no sense sitting at the table with 1/5th the buyin
 
E

ez2cy

Enthusiast
Dingo; In my short internet career (just over a year), I've been playing mostly SnG's etc, so ring games I'm trying to get better at. Sometimes I buyin for the max or as in this case I wasn't going to play for long so I buy in for the min. I take it by your post that you feel this is a mistake. Am I correct that you feel had I bought in for the max, he may not have pushed me allin with his draw? Had I had the max, if he had just come out with a bet, do you feel if I pushed back allin with the two pair, he'd have folded the draw? Maybe this is one reason I'm making a bit of money, but basically breaking even.

I've also been reading forums ever since I started playing online. However, I've never come in and read the hand reviews. Maybe this is where I should spend most of my time, as my biggest downfall is putting people on a hand. Either way, in this hand I never would have put him on a draw, as I myself would never risk money "on a chance". I know, it's not my thinking I have to worry about, it's his/her's. But with him being such a tight player, draw was the last thing on my mind. Most of the replies say they'd have called, which I did and lost...LOL I don't mind losing, but need to know why I did. Did I get out played? Did they just get lucky? Or should I play chess instead? LOL
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Take a look at a hand calculator - the one I usually use is at http://www.pokerlistings.com/poker-odds-calculator

If you put your hands in you'll see you're a favourite to win, so your call had a positive expectation no matter how big your opponent's bet.

Try reading some books on hold'em and you'll find you sometimes have a positive expectation on a call even if you don't think you're favourite in the hand, due to the money that's in the pot already.

You played it well and your opponent got lucky, although I wouldn't say it's a particularly bad play by him, because some of the time you will fold. You can only win by getting your money in when you have a positive expectation like you did here. It's very rare that you'll be 100% to win, so expect to lose some pots where you are favourite, but you'll also pull some bad beats on other people (which is much more satisfying).
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
call. definitely.

okay, I already saw the results, but that doesn't change the read. if he's tight, the straight isn't a possibility - would a tight player call your preflop raise with 8T? not bloody likely.
AA and KK should both have raised your preflop bet. Their goal is to get as much money in the middle as they can, because, as a rule of thumb, their hand is the best so far, it isn't likely to improve (only 2 outs), and they have to assume every other hand improves the more cards that are out there. So as long as your playing a Tight-Aggressive guy, you can probably discard the higher pairs from your read.
There's an outside chance he would be holding a QQ, JJ or TT here, but in those cases you split or win the pot (if you haven't seen the turn yet), so I won't consider those either.

So what's left that he would call you with? AK, AQ or AJ, probably suited.
given his bet on the flop, I think you have to put him on the draw for the flush, and both cards as overcards. It is possible he does have a small pair and hit his set, but would he then bet 4X the pot (considering your shortstack, that's all he's really risking), hoping to draw you in?
 
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