how to play quads...

What to do on the river

  • Push all in

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Bet small for value

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Check

    Votes: 3 33.3%

  • Total voters
    9
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
okay, I'd really like some input on this one, because I'm still debating whether I bet this correctly (or do you think a check would work)?

9 player game, $1/$2 NLHE. MP is short stack $20, I’m one from the button with $180, button is big with $240. I’ve got a loose image for once – although I’ve been winning most of the hands people call me down on, and my one all-in tonight was when I turned a KKQQQ boat. Button is a respectable TAG who’s been steadily adding chips to his stack.

1st 2 fold, MP raises to $6, folds around to me, I looks down at A10♦, and raise to $18. Button calls, MP goes all in. I call, button calls.
Pot just over of $60 (20 each, plus blinds, minus $2.50 rake)

Flop A♥A♠K♣. Trip Aces, rainbow board ! I want him to bet (please have a K), so I check. Bastard on the button checks too.

Turn Q♣. I’m not happy with the flush and straight draws now. I bet out $40 to try and price him out. Nutbuster flat calls.

$140 in the pot.

River – thank you! A♣ river Quads. I’m certain he can’t have the exact two cards needed to beat me, so I’m sure I have the best hand. I think, put on a show, stare at him for a little while, stare at the pot a while, and push all in for $120.

Looking back I think I got that part wrong – should I have value bet a little lower, rather than jamming the pot? He’s got to read me as either having the A, a K or bluffing. Any thoughts?
 
cbt711

cbt711

Guest
A value bet might as well be all in if he's experienced - it will be seen as a very intimidating bet, and you will look very strong - even with a loose table image... K anything here is most likely good in his mind. He either has a Q, (suited connectors maybe? just to play back at you with 2 to 1 odds with your loose image thinking MP is going all in) or a pocket pair to be in for 20 preflop - since there was a raise and re raise in front of him - I'd think pocket pair.

I would have said all in, as soon as I could - in live games this can be seen as missing a draw all together, and just trying to take it down... whatever you do, don't look at your opponents stack to see how much you can take or double up off him... this is such an easy tell in a live game when people have the nuts - and is done unconsciously all the time. 3 of the quads on the board is harder to get paid off then pocket pair quads, I wouldn't value bet personally - but I do change it up a lot. If Im in a ballsy mood, I check it and try to get him to hang himself. But if he doesnt have a K, you're not likely to get anything out of him.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Tricky one... on balance I think you need to sell your hand and make a bet that he can call with a K or Q or maybe just a flush. There are plenty of hand that could be second best here and will call a small bet but not a large one. You've also got to play the player. If he is apt to bluff when you show weakness, you could either check or make a mini-bet of $10, indicating you want a cheap showdown. If he doesn't bluff, bet say $40 and hope he calls you.
 
brown110

brown110

Guest
A value bet may work best here... you have quads and only the 10 j of clubs has you beat... go ahead and try to make some money. An all in here can just price him out of the pot in this situation.
 
dbitel

dbitel

Guest
zeb,

pushing is best here. Let me introduce you to the "zeebo thm":

Theorem 1: The Full House Theorem

Nobody is capable of folding a full house on any street for any sized bet, ever. Don't fool yourself into thinking they can. I'm not even referring to NUT full houses (eg. board reads 29522, if your opponent has the loan 5, they will almost always call allin; if they folded, it was likely do to timing out or a misclick). Remember: full houses aren't too common, and after all, you might be bluffing!

Ways to exploit:

If you expect someone has a full house, and you can't beat a full house never ever bluff. If you expect someone has a full house and you can beat their likely full house, go allin. Let's say the board is 29522, and you have TT or better, go allin no matter what the size of the pot is, b/c they can't fold.
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
zeb,

pushing is best here. Let me introduce you to the "zeebo thm":

Theorem 1: The Full House Theorem

Nobody is capable of folding a full house on any street for any sized bet, ever. Don't fool yourself into thinking they can. I'm not even referring to NUT full houses (eg. board reads 29522, if your opponent has the loan 5, they will almost always call allin; if they folded, it was likely do to timing out or a misclick). Remember: full houses aren't too common, and after all, you might be bluffing!

Ways to exploit:

If you expect someone has a full house, and you can't beat a full house never ever bluff. If you expect someone has a full house and you can beat their likely full house, go allin. Let's say the board is 29522, and you have TT or better, go allin no matter what the size of the pot is, b/c they can't fold.

hehe, I like this theory a lot - although I have laid down a FH many time before - but I'll admit it was only the ones where I had to be behind (the most memorable was pockets fives vs a KKAK board on a 4 way turn, with 2 tight players). As a rule of thumb, though, it does fit with how I see people play - including this hand.

For those who care what happened - nutso called me and flipped KQos. He figured me for a bluff, so my loose image actually worked (although I got great respect for my all-ins for the next 3 hours).
 
cbt711

cbt711

Guest
Chris Furgeson Vs. Prolot Friedman (spelling?): World Series circuit tournement last year, final table heads up.
Board: AJA, turn:A, river:K
Jesus hole:A,10
Friedman:K,J

Jesus value bets 200k chips, approximately 75% of Friedman's remaining chips. Freidman called, but I think with just the J, he folds here. How can you lay down two boats? Props to the guy for not moving all in here, must be all those internet bad beats that kept him scared of the A.

I've seen the Dbitel theorum realized a hundred times, and the one time I lay down my sucker boat, with a KKQQ board, and i have the Q, an all in of 55$ into a 3$ pot was never getting called by me, maybe not even with the K (still could lose to QQ) But the one time I'm smart and fold the boat, the guy shows, he was playing A high.

Gotta love poker.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
cbt711,

Raising in Friedman's situation would have been a really poor play, given that the only hand Chris Ferguson should be calling an all-in raise with (hard to say without the stack sizes and the history so far in the hand) is a hand that either wins or ties. There's no value in a raise when you can't beat the only hand that will call it. Suspecting you have the best hand is not a reason to raise. I believe this was up for discussion in another thread involving dbitel recently, actually.

https://www.cardschat.com/aggressive-poker.php
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

Legend
I’m certain he can’t have the exact two cards needed to beat me, so I’m sure I have the best hand.

If he has anything it's a monster and he's thinking the same thing. I would bet $40 to match your turn bet and hope he saw weakness and raises. If he raises it'll be big. If he doesnt then stay at the table because he's the biggest fish you'll see for a while. :D
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Awards
9
If you value bet, and he then goes all in, what? Same if you check. If you push, and he calls, and then beat u, well, you paid for the best bad beat story there is.......
 
G

Ghoundai

Guest
Prahlad Freidman is his name by the way. Chris attacked Prahlad in a way that a pro can attack a pro. Prahlad would be able to fold his boat (maybe) if he put him on an A -- he did. But Chris did exactly what he should to a GOOD player he value bet it. If it was a donkey -- Chris would have definitely put him on a K or J and then pushed and take out the crumpled boat.
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
just to finish for y'all

This hand came out almost identical to the friedman/ferguson one - my opponent called, and showed [kd][qd], for a double-fullhouse.
And just nodded when I flipped the A for him. Like Dbitel said, he couldn't get away from the boat, even though he had a notion I wasn't bluffing. I think he hoped I was bluffing, and with my pot-sized all-in he saw a loose player trying to push him out. Like I would risk over 100 bucks on a bluff!

So big ka-ching for me on this one. And the best part was, an hour later I did bluff him off a triple-J board when he had a pocket pair!
 
Vasity

Vasity

Enthusiast
So total pot was 140$ and his hand was apperently good enough to call the other raise. I would of tried raising 1/4th to 2/4th's of the pot even if he thought you had the quads which he most likley didn't put you on at this point he's got over that in the pot already and usually players wil call a safe betlike that they figure well I've already put that much in I wil pay a little more to see if I win. I love players who play like this and talk more shit then tonyg when I see people do this. But it is often a tactic newbie poker players use. If they think they got a good % on you.
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
So total pot was 140$ and his hand was apperently good enough to call the other raise. I would of tried raising 1/4th to 2/4th's of the pot even if he thought you had the quads which he most likley didn't put you on at this point he's got over that in the pot already and usually players wil call a safe betlike that they figure well I've already put that much in I wil pay a little more to see if I win. I love players who play like this and talk more shit then tonyg when I see people do this. But it is often a tactic newbie poker players use. If they think they got a good % on you.

Yup. I don't know why I had been so loose that day (other than the fact that it was working), but it enabled him to make the call - because he had to be calling based on the fact he thought I was bluffing.

But I think the consensus in here has been that I overbet this one and "got lucky" that he called. I can't say I read him so well I knew he would call, so in retrospect I have to agree with the consensus. Next time, smaller bet (probably a 1/2 pot sized). I'm fairly certain he would have just checked if I didn't bet, so the 1/2 pot sounds right to me.
 
LastBullet

LastBullet

Guest
umm...

I wouldve bet the 3 Aces on the flop. Make him think that you arent setting him up, make an obvious bet with the hand that he thinks you dont have because you are fast playing your trips.
 
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