Help me with AK

[eagle jim]

Villan is 34/34/2.0 over a small sample (15 or so hands). I have been very agressive at the table over the past 10 or so minutes that I have been there. Obviously if the above stats were over a large sample I am way ahead of her range, but what is our next move here as played?

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

UTG: $16.15 (161.5 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $10.60 (106 bb)
MP1: $10 (100 bb)
MP2: $10.25 (102.5 bb)
MP3: $9.90 (99 bb)
CO: $6.05 (60.5 bb)
BTN: $19.70 (197 bb)
SB: $5.10 (51 bb)
BB: $2 (20 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with K

A

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.40, MP1 raises to $1.20, 6 folds, Hero???

 

[Steveg1976]

I smooth call this and evaluate after the flop. If you 4 bet this you will have to call a shove so that is up to you.

 

[eagle jim]

I guess part of my real question with both hands is: Do we or should we want to get our stack in pre-flop with AK? Obviously it is much better than getting it in with AQ or less and I know it is all read dependent, image dependent and table dependent....but just trying to get a general idea of how far we should be going pf with AK.

 

[bw07507]

given that villain here is 3betting an UTG+1 raise and u'll be oop for the entire hand I just give this up preflop and fold. If villain had these stats over ~50 hands I'd say its an easy 4bet/call shove, but since you don't really know anything I think you can just lay this down here. If it turns out that villain really is a crazy maniac, then folding here isn't a huge mistake. Shoving and finding out that villain will only 3bet KK and AA would be a huge mistake.

 

[Steveg1976]

if you know villian will stack off with A9o sure, if the villain is like me with a VPIP of 35 but I am very selective post flop no, becuase he won't shove preflop unless you are behind and the same for post flop.

I will say this, why are you trying so hard to get it all in preflop. There is a ton of ways to take pots post flop.

 

[Sardonix]

well what kind of a story is he really telling you here? I think hes saying i have QQ, KK, AA or AK or AQs. If you make this call which i would because its not all in...... if im in poss and don't hit something im just gonna toss it in the muck if he leads out, if im under the gun id probably lead out and just hope to take it down with or without a hand but if he comes over the top say goodbye to it. This hand is really sketchy and i would probably just smooth call him down unless i wanted to see where i was at in the hand then a check raise might be in order. its all in your guts...

 

[eagle jim]

I don't want to get it all in pf with AK, but if I 4 bet in this case I am pretty much committing to a shove (I mean I could fold but might as well leave the table and change my name at that point cause my image is shot). Based on her stats (agreed the sample is small) I am killing her range, however if she is at the top of her range, I am at best a coin flip and maybe way behind. Should it be a 4 bet or fold, 'cause if I call, I am oop and if I miss (likely) she is going to probably c-bet any flop?

 

[ChuckTs]

This is where FR and 6max differ for me - against a relative unknown who seems lose I'm %100 stacking in a 6-handed game. Apparently (according to bw, who's FR advice I trust way more than mine), stacking would probably be -ev here even with the little bit of evidence that he seems loose.

 

[bw07507]

This is where FR and 6max differ for me - against a relative unknown who seems lose I'm %100 stacking in a 6-handed game. Apparently (according to bw, who's FR advice I trust way more than mine), stacking would probably be -ev here even with the little bit of evidence that he seems loose.

The one thing that makes me wary to stack this is that villain here is 3betting an UTG+1 open. If this is CO vs Button or Button vs blind I will stack here 100%. I still think a fold here is the best play, but 4betting/shoving isn't terrible.

 

[mrjohnson911]

i cant see why you fold this, if this a loose player.. even if its a tight player it could still be AQ or AK.... also a lot of players dont respect early postion raises anymore so i would put too much into that

 

[vanquish]

I can never just fold here. I probably 4-bet and call a shove ~50% of the time, and call the other half.

 

[i desire love]

Flat call here. Take a look at the flop. AKs pretty strong hand, many would reraise in this spot but depends if u wanna risk a coinflip cause u still have equity to fold after the flop

 

[zachvac]

I really hate a flat call here. You'll have to play the hand oop. If you think villain's range consists of almost always AA/KK here you're not going to be able to stack postflop and if he's much wider you want it in preflop. Personally I'd 4-bet get it in or fold, leaning towards fold.

 

[eagle jim]

OK, I really thought she was just figuring I was a maniac since I had raised the last three hands, so I four bet and she shoved as you can see below. Too late to fold?........If I four bet with the intention of shoving should I have shoved instead of 4 bet and make her make the call, instead of putting myself in that position??


Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

UTG: $16.15 (161.5 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $10.60 (106 bb)
MP1: $10 (100 bb)
MP2: $10.25 (102.5 bb)
MP3: $9.90 (99 bb)
CO: $6.05 (60.5 bb)
BTN: $19.70 (197 bb)
SB: $5.10 (51 bb)
BB: $2 (20 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with K

A

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.40, MP1 raises to $1.20, 6 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, MP1 raises to $10 and is all-in, Hero ?????

 

[tenbob]

Meh these spots are terrible. 3-betting AK in position is fine, 3-betting oop is fine, cold calling a 4bet with AK is just spew especially in a FR game. You are going to get outplayed every single time, all the times villian has AK/AQ as well and you both miss your getting owned. Your getting little action out of all the pairs you beat when you hit, unless AQ decides to overplay on an ace high board.

The ideal senario is to shove/fold to 4bets, and to make sure that you are the one gaining the little extra FE and being the one leading, and generally most of the time this is best is when its blind vs blind stuff, or defence of your BB vs button raises. Unless villian is a prooven maniac then in general the best course of action is to fold to a 4bet in FR.

 

[bw07507]

After you put 3.50 in preflop I don't think theres any way you can possibly fold at this point. If you are 4betting here u should be looking to get it in.

 

[odinscott]

i found that my biggest leak was overplaying ak preflop

now if noone has raised in front of me, i put in a decent raise and try to see what happens on the flop.

if there are several people in the pot and there have already been a raise and reraise then a 3bet etc, i usually will fold unless it is cheap and i am getting good odds on my money
i never try to get into a pot where 2 or more people have already shoved

in tourneys obv it is different depending on stack sizes, etc

the thing about ak is that it is a drawing hand. i cant count how many times that i have had it cracked with low pocket pairs or even worse aq

 

[eagle jim]

Please, please, please don't let AG read this last post to this thread. (Sorry in advance, AG, for any irritation this may have caused you).

 

[feitr]

The one thing that makes me wary to stack this is that villain here is 3betting an UTG+1 open. If this is CO vs Button or Button vs blind I will stack here 100%. I still think a fold here is the best play, but 4betting/shoving isn't terrible.

-10nl and therefore the odds that villain has a clue about positional ranges and how you should adjust your range to that is probably close to nothing
-villain is an unknown and your average 10nl player is probably terrible
-villain is aggro

4 betting and getting it in is probably ok. Flatting is pretty gross, but I guess you could flat it and just go when you get tptk if you aren't happy getting it in pf or folding...but typically that is a terrible play because you are oop, having to fold when you miss, and not always getting action when you hit.

So fold or 4 bet get it in and i don't really see how you can fold AKs vs a aggro 10nl player that is unknown. Sure villain might actually be an 18/18 but they might also be a 50/50 as well. And if villain showed up with AA here i'd suspect it had more to do with villain hitting the top of their range rather than an accurate reflection of their 3 betting range here.

Course i've never played nl10 FR so i have no idea what ppl stack off with there.

 

[GSpicoli]

I don't understand. You have suited AK preflop facing a re-raise. In other words you have a drawing hand pre-flop facing a re-raise. What is there to think about? Why would you want to commit more of your chips PF by re-re-raising? You aren't short stacked yet so there is no reason to push harder on a drawing hand. Smooth call and see the flop, give yourself some room to maneuveur post-flop. If you whiff on the flop you can get out if you face an aggressive raise or smell a rat. Depending on your opponent you may want to just ditch this hand and save yourself $0.80.

I have never understood the school of thought that says you have to shove hard with AK. I understand that it is considered the 3rd best pre-flop hand but why would you risk your tourney or cash stack on a hand that is only about 45% to win against a pocket pair such as jacks or queens and a huge dog to pocket aces or kings.

 

[feitr]

drawing hands don't have every single ax/kx hand completely crushed and are only significantly behind 6 combos in the entire deck now do they...

 

[dsvw56]

I'm really lazy, so I'm not gonna bother doing the work on this, but I'd have to say 4-betting for 1/3 of your stack then folding is almost always a mistake, regardless of what hand you have or your opponents range. So that's not the decision that needs to be made here, once you 4-bet to that size, calling is a given.

So let's back it up a bit. I don't hate 4-betting, at least not when compared to either of the other options. So I think 4-betting is the right move, I just think you screwed yourself on the sizing. Generally when 4-betting, your raise doesnt need to be as big as one might think. Usually something just slightly larger than a min raise (this usually amounts to like 24-30bb, depending on the previous action) is all that you really need to get the job done.

So I don't mind any of the action up until your 4-bet. I would have opted to 4-bet to something like $2.80 here, and give myself an opportunity to fold if he shoves.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

-10nl and therefore the odds that villain has a clue about positional ranges and how you should adjust your range to that is probably close to nothing
-villain is an unknown and your average 10nl player is probably terrible
-villain is aggro

4 betting and getting it in is probably ok. Flatting is pretty gross, but I guess you could flat it and just go when you get tptk if you aren't happy getting it in pf or folding...but typically that is a terrible play because you are oop, having to fold when you miss, and not always getting action when you hit.

So fold or 4 bet get it in and i don't really see how you can fold AKs vs a aggro 10nl player that is unknown. Sure villain might actually be an 18/18 but they might also be a 50/50 as well. And if villain showed up with AA here i'd suspect it had more to do with villain hitting the top of their range rather than an accurate reflection of their 3 betting range here.

Course i've never played nl10 FR so i have no idea what ppl stack off with there.

/agree

yes, we only have a small sample of hands, but in the absence of any more concrete information it makes the most sense to base our reads on what little information we have. if we conclude that villain is (a) bad at poker and hence probably doesn't know what UTG+1 is, nevermind adjusts his 3-betting range given a UTG+1 raise accordingly and (b) is a bit of a lagtard and will 3-bet with AQ and maybe even AJ here, we can't really let AK go at any stage in the hand. Even when he shoves he could still be doing it with AQ, and by that point you have too much invested in the pot to seriously consider folding.

maybe i've been playing too many SNGs but i want to say i like 4-bet shoving here. to anyone with half a brain 4-bet shoving makes it look like you have exactly what you have (AK), but most 10NL players don't have half a brain and will play for stacks with AQ or even silly hands like KQs. obviously if our opponent is a nitty 100NL reg or something we can easily fold to the 3-bet, but that isn't the case here.

calling the 3-bet is horrible - you would be playing OOP in a 3-bet pot without the initiative. you will miss most flops, you will get shoved on most flops, if you're going to see a flop and play fit or fold here you are spewing. if you're going to see a flop and shove blind, you're spewing.

 

[zachvac]

the thing about ak is that it is a drawing hand.

In other words you have a drawing hand pre-flop facing a re-raise.

I think this phrase is the single most tilting phrase I've seen, possibly even more tilting than the poker is rigged claims. This is incredibly false and anyone making this claim has no concept of comparative hand values.

Anyway back to the OP: I still don't get how people would simply flat here and hope to stack TPTK. If your TPTK is worth stacking it means you're confident they don't have AA/KK most of the time. If this is true you should be felting AK preflop. If you are flatting you should be willing to fold if you hit TPTK. Since that's kinda out of the question I therefore claim that flatting AK to a 3-bet oop is incredibly horrible. This is the one statement I'm not sure of and would welcome a refutation. My first paragraph is not questionable though, describing AK as a drawing hand is just incredibly misleading. There are plenty of threads on this so just search it for details.

 

[dsvw56]

Anyway back to the OP: I still don't get how people would simply flat here and hope to stack TPTK. If your TPTK is worth stacking it means you're confident they don't have AA/KK most of the time. If this is true you should be felting AK preflop. If you are flatting you should be willing to fold if you hit TPTK. Since that's kinda out of the question I therefore claim that flatting AK to a 3-bet oop is incredibly horrible.

I agree, flatting the 3-bet OOP is spewtastic. You just simply can't play fit or fold poker OOP in 3-bet pots, It's basically like lighting money on fire. I will say there is a time and place for this move, but it isnt here vs. an unknown.