Heated argument at table

tazztaz

tazztaz

Rock Star
I say 17 true outs for my flush/str8 draw (I have the Q T spades)
The turn & river miss me , the guys brags on his play and sayes I should have not called his all in reraise , I say to him I had the best of it on the flop , He says I only had 8 REAL outs . I say I have am about a %15 favorite @ the flop , he LoL @ me over and over , and sayes I need to learn to figure "REAL OUTS"

Dosen't take me long to pin him as a calling station and take more than twice my loss on this hand from him . but anyway I think my math was at leat close to right . For some reason this guy thinks he was a %64 to win on this flop , he said we had the same amount of outs , except he already had a pair .

Some input please?
 

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tenbob

tenbob

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What was his hand tazz ? Need more info on this one

Sorry the image just came up, this is very similar to the post that bill posted a while ago. But i agree with you,i would call an all in every time with this one.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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9 outs to flush, 6 to straight, so you weren't far off, other guy is an idiot etc.
 
L

lunagirl

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Dorkus Malorkus said:
9 outs to flush, 6 to straight, so you weren't far off, other guy is an idiot etc.
I am the world's worst odds calculator, but wouldn't there be 8 outs for the straight? (aces or nines?) And then the 9 outs for the flush?
Please tell me if I am wrong cause I am still trying to figure this whole "outs" business.
 
KillerKat

KillerKat

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lunagir) but wouldn't there be 8 outs for the straight? (aces or nines?) And then the 9 outs for the flush? .[/QUOTE said:
LOL, I was going to same the exact same thing, Then read DM's response You learn something new everyday on this site.

Thanks.
 
X

xdmanx007

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Dorkus Malorkus said:
You're counting the 9s and As twice. :)
DOH! 17 outs 36 percent to hit on the turn 37 percent on the River. 60 percent chance 1 of your outs would fall on the turn or river. So had the best of it. Eventhough you were behind on the flop. So Dork no aces or 9's are seen therefore all 8 are available. I most likely make that call in a tournament. Cash game would depend on the pot size.
 
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Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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No. 15 outs.

The As and 9s make a straight but also make a flush. Counting them twice is similar to saying you have 40 outs to an inside straight draw because you just feel like counting all the 8s in the deck 10 times.
 
X

xdmanx007

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Dorkus Malorkus said:
No. 15 outs.

The As and 9s make a straight but also make a flush. Counting them twice is similar to saying you have 40 outs to an inside straight draw because you just feel like counting all the 8s in the deck 10 times.
ok maybe your right ;)
 
Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

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Dorkus is completely right. If you say that the 4 aces and 4 nines are available (thinking in the straight), you have to count 7 cards for your spade flush, because in the deck there aren´t an As just to make your straight and another As just to make your flush. There is just one As that helps both your straight and flush. The same applies to the 9s.
Lets make it simple and count each out:

3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s, 9c, 9h, 9d, Ks, As, Ac, Ah, Ad.

That are 15 outs.

In relation to the first question, i don´t know what "Real Outs" means. I think i have an idea of that, but not to say that you had 8 real outs.
I think that "real outs" refers to count just the outs that help you winning the hand and not just improving your hand.
If i didn´t explain it well, i´ll say two examples:

1) In your case tazztaz, you didn´t count the Qh, Qc, Qd, 10h, 10c and 10d, because you knew that they would help to improve your hand but not to win. It was obvious (unless you counted the runner boat, but it would be meaningless because it varies the percentage just like 1%). Your real outs were just the ones that made a straight or flush.

2)This is the most common example. Lets say you hold a open-ended straight draw and the flop shows two hearts. Your outs would be 8, but maybe you think an opponent is holding two hearts so another heart would make flush and he would beat your straight. So if you´re afraid of another heart, your "real outs" would be 6 (8 - 2 hearts).

As i said before, i don´t know the real meaning of real outs. I tried to figure out what was its meaning by the clue that on your hand you had 8 real outs. I have two theories of what he calls "real outs":
1) He calls real outs to your total outs/2 (because maybe he calculated the percentage of hitting your hand by each street for separated). That would be stupid, because in an all in situation after the flop you have to count your percentage of hitting the hand in both turn and river.
2) He invented that term in order to make you doubt about your play and just bother you.

Anyway your hand odds were 56%, so postflop you were the favourite to win the hand. And i have to say that if you were in tournament, probably it was a good call because you need to win some races if you want a good finish.
 
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Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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I think real outs refers to the cards that will actually produce a win taking your opponents cards into consideration. Something you couldn't know before the showdown. In any case, all your outs were real. 9 flush outs and 8-2 straight outs making you the 54% favorite to win with 2 cards to come. Nice call Tazz, any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

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IMO, the guy was being a douche and using words he didn't know the meaning of. He said you were only 36% to win which is reduculous with a Flush and a Straight draw. This is precisely why I don't use the chat function at all when I play online. I don't have any need to justify my play to someone I just won a pot off of nor do I need to hear nh, gg, vnh every 3 seconds. I avoid the situation altogether.
 
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