Hand Hypothetical; Raised on a 7-7-4 flop

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
I'm reviewing some hands I've played. One of them turned out to be a bit problematic to figure out for me, because... Well, I won't give it away quite yet. Here's the hand, or rather hands, since I have two versions of it. 100BB stacks in both cases.

1) 50NL, 6-max. I'm in the cut-off and it's folded to me. I open to $2. Both blinds call. The flop comes 7c-7d-4s, blinds check and I bet $4.50. SB check-min-raises me (to $9) and BB folds.

2) Same deal, except I'm called by button and the big blind. On the flop, I bet the same, but now it's button that minraises me, and BB folds.

Which hands, if any, do you flat call in scenario 1? In scenario 2? Can you ever profitably continue with AK? If the answer is "no" do you still always fold unimproved A-high hands and risk getting run-over on dry flops, or do you occasionally bluff re-raise with weak holdings to balance it?


 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Do you play loose enough so that 76, 87, A7 are credible hands for you to raise from CO? How often do you c-bet? This really affects the credibility of your c-bet and therefore the likelihood that villain's minraise is a bluff.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Do you play loose enough so that 76, 87, A7 are credible hands for you to raise from CO? How often do you c-bet? This really affects the credibility of your c-bet and therefore the likelihood that villain's minraise is a bluff.
I open A7s always in that spot, and 87/76 some of the time (versus bad players/tight blinds). I c-bet more or less always in position and maybe three times out of four out of position. I haven't really "figured out" c-betting yet, so these percentages and the ranges for when I do it or not will end up under revision at some point in the (near) future.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
I open A7s always in that spot, and 87/76 some of the time (versus bad players/tight blinds). I c-bet more or less always in position and maybe three times out of four out of position. I haven't really "figured out" c-betting yet, so these percentages and the ranges for when I do it or not will end up under revision at some point in the (near) future.

So from villain's point of view, it's somewhat credible that you would have a 7, but your c-bet certainly doesn't mean that yet and they are perfectly entitled to make a move on you.

I think for both hands, you should mostly fold when you started with two high cards and mostly continue in the hand when you started with a pocket pair. Because with a pair you have a decent chance to win the hand at showdown if the betting slows down, while you will most likely need to get villain to fold to win the hand when you have high cards only.

First hand, you have position so a flat call is fine for me, then you can reconsider depending on villain's line on the turn. The second hand I'd either reraise of fold because it will become impossible to play OOP.

As a final note, ALWAYS c-betting when in position is not a great idea. That's one of the easiest pattern for your opponents to notice and it's clearly exploitable.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
I hate minraises. Generally I don't continue on risky boards like this with overs unless I have a very good read that my opponent is bluffing. In a multiway pot that possibility is always really unlikely, and given our overs aren't clean on boards like this, I generally just fold.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
I hate minraises. Generally I don't continue on risky boards like this with overs unless I have a very good read that my opponent is bluffing. In a multiway pot that possibility is always really unlikely, and given our overs aren't clean on boards like this, I generally just fold.

I fully agree. But when you c-bet as much as OP does, than you create a strong incentive for your opponents to bluff raise your c-bets, and therefore you need to defend them more than usual.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
In general at 50nl you aren't going to be up against guys observant enough to even know how frequently you c-bet. Usually a 'good' player will be observant enough to note that, but I don't see many 'good' players minraise a flop like this with any part of their range. Unless we've got history with them and know they're decent regulars, we basically assume they're playing 1st level poker - thinking of nothing but their own hand. With the player yet to act and FP showing considerable strength, I doubt someone will play back at him here with nothing. Maybe with 56 or something, but usually this is a legit hand like 88, 7x, A4, etc.

I completely agree that the frequency of your c-bets should be proportional to the frequency at which you defend your c-bets, but this is just a terrible spot for it imo.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
I completely agree that the frequency of your c-bets should be proportional to the frequency at which you defend your c-bets, but this is just a terrible spot for it imo.

well, it's a great flop for villains to bluff you out of your c-bets, so it's a spot where you have to defend some. Obviously defending in position would be easier than OOP. So I'd fold hand 2 and call hand 1. Fold to a turn bet and bet to a turn check.
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Whether they're observant or not, most players at 50nl will realize a raise usually means strength, and that flop did not particularly hit that range very well. Minraises like this are tough because you don't know whether your opponent is simply baiting you to call or whether they just want a cheap bluff. I think the decision really needs to be made before you make this cbet. This is an extremely dry flop, almost no pocket pair is going to fold ever. The only question is whether your opponent is smart and aggressive enough to try this move. I've actually started making this move a lot oop with hands like this, I'll have overs and against an aggressive opponent I'll check minraise. Normally minraises aren't great but the greater threat lies in the fact that you may be putting in stronger bets on the next 2 streets and this gets you good fold equity without committing a ton of chips.

Now on defending against this. Unless this is an extremely aggressive opponent, I think the cbet was the right move. Against an opponent who will make these moves with overs, you may want to just check behind for the free card. You most likely have the best hand anyway, you're just giving a free card. But especially since it's multiway, I'd have to assume the villain has at least a pocket pair. If you do make the cbet and get minraised, I think it's an easy fold with AK unless you have a really strong read in which case you could come over the top or just call and let another card fall and bet if he checks the turn. I've been seeing these moves more and more lately and the problem is some people will do it with monsters and some with bluffs. So even though most 50nl players aren't smart enough to mix up their play, the fact that different players make this move with different hands provides that mix-up for them. But as soon as a reg makes a move like that that reaches showdown you can bet that's in my memory. Also to note that if you do this and play a good amount (meaning others will get reads on you), you absolutely need to do this with both monsters and bluffs to balance your play, because others will be noting your tendencies as well.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
But as soon as a reg makes a move like that that reaches showdown you can bet that's in my memory.
Indeed! One of the first things I make notes on are what min-raises/min-bets mean. That & bet sizing are the two biggest tells IMO.

And like others have said, this is always a fold OOP for me, and in position against an aggressive player I'll usually bluff 3-bet this one, but I'm usually folding. I prefer a bluff 3-bet since it looks so scary, and is usually cheaper than just betting the turn. Plus, an aggro player who is going to make this move on the flop will usually continue to represent and fire on the turn.
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top