Good call?

[JimboJim]

pokerstars Game #7929374762: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/01/14 - 07:39:15 (ET)
Table 'Viking I' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: slyguy58 ($1.35 in chips)
Seat 2: Tungston II ($11.60 in chips)
Seat 4: rudi71 ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 5: JimboJim711 ($5.90 in chips)
Seat 6: Sienna3 ($6.20 in chips)
Seat 7: bmarley2005 ($5.10 in chips)
Seat 8: jpast1 ($7.30 in chips)
Seat 9: luckdw ($4.30 in chips)
slyguy58: posts small blind $0.05
Tungston II: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JimboJim711 [Tc Ad]
rudi71: calls $0.10
JimboJim711: calls $0.10
Sienna3: folds
bmarley2005: raises $0.10 to $0.20
jpast1: folds
luckdw: folds
slyguy58: folds
Tungston II: calls $0.10
rudi71: calls $0.10
JimboJim711: calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [6s As 4d]
Tungston II: checks
rudi71: checks
JimboJim711: bets $0.40
bmarley2005: raises $0.40 to $0.80
Tungston II: folds
rudi71: folds
JimboJim711: calls $0.40
*** TURN *** [6s As 4d] [Ts]
JimboJim711: bets $1
bmarley2005: raises $3.10 to $4.10 and is all-in
JimboJim711: calls $3.10
*** RIVER *** [6s As 4d Ts] [6c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JimboJim711: shows [Tc Ad] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
bmarley2005: shows [7s 9s] (a flush, Ace high)
bmarley2005 collected $10.15 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.65 | Rake $0.50
Board [6s As 4d Ts 6c]
Seat 1: slyguy58 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Tungston II (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: rudi71 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: JimboJim711 showed [Tc Ad] and lost with two pair, Aces and Tens
Seat 6: Sienna3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: bmarley2005 showed [7s 9s] and won ($10.15) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: jpast1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: luckdw (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[joosebuck]

re-raise that flop. there arent many hands you are behind to, and the min-raise on a draw heavy board is the most telegraphed semi-bluff there is.

 

[alan1983]

With bmarley being preflop raiser i guess its hard to put him on that hand and not a higher ace. And once the ten hit its impossible not to call i think.

And something tells me bmarley wasnt folding that flop no matter the re-raise

 

[shinedown.45]

With bmarley being preflop raiser i guess its hard to put him on that hand and not a higher ace. And once the ten hit its impossible not to call i think.

And something tells me bmarley wasnt folding that flop no matter the re-raise

^^^this^^^.
After all jimbo, you know as well as I do how hard it is to chase someone away from a flush draw at that level, so IMO a large raise on the flop would make villian only delay his decision to call.
And a big NO to OP.

 

[NineLions]

re-raise that flop. there arent many hands you are behind to, and the min-raise on a draw heavy board is the most telegraphed semi-bluff there is.

Reraise ATo in early position? Mind you, raising to .40 won't guarantee anything at this level (I've been playing the same level). You either get called by a hand that you're behind, or a donk, or both. These tend to be limp-friendly tables and raises or calls can mean anything.

 

[NineLions]

The call itself, Jimbo, is one of the things I'm trying to get myself away from. Even with his miniraise on the flop, if the flush completes and someone pushes, like shine says I find most of the time that's what they were waiting for in which case you've only got 4 outs to complete the boat.

 

[zebranky]

1st and foremost - raise PF with AT. Its not that you have a great hand, but you want to make sure hands like this don't control the pot on you. From his point of view, he is 2 from the button, and no one has done anything but limp. Even just min-raising the PF, he's taking control with a weak hand.

Flop - you're right, if he's going to raise your bet here, you're not getting him off this hand. if you feel he's drawing, push to gain odds. If you're not sure, flat call is okay.

Turn - his betting so far has all the hallmarks of a low flush. minraise PF for control, minraise flop on the draw, all-in on the 3rd spade. In any other game, I would say fold and kick yourself.

Here, though, you may have to call just because of all the donk players at this level - from what evryone keeps telling me, half the players are gamblers and not poker players, so you should call but not be suprised.

 

[ChuckTs]

You either get called by a hand that you're behind, or a donk, or both.

Why is getting called by a donk a bad thing? Reraise to find out where you're at in the hand, and dump it if villain comes over the top. You aren't raising because your hand is strong, but because you want to find out if it beats your opponents hand.

I prefer leading out for ~2/3 the pot and seeing what our opponent does in that case, but as played I like a reraise.

The call itself, Jimbo, is one of the things I'm trying to get myself away from. Even with his miniraise on the flop, if the flush completes and someone pushes, like shine says I find most of the time that's what they were waiting for in which case you've only got 4 outs to complete the boat.

True, but does any ace not make this play too? People can get pretty donkish at this level and will definitely push with TPTK or much worse.

I call this all day every day, but I play it differently from the flop-->turn.

 

[NineLions]

Why is getting called by a donk a bad thing?

I'm not fond of the term myself. What I should have said is at this level you might still get called by someone playing a T5 or some other longshot.

 

[NineLions]

1st and foremost - raise PF with AT. Its not that you have a great hand, but you want to make sure hands like this don't control the pot on you. From his point of view, he is 2 from the button, and no one has done anything but limp. Even just min-raising the PF, he's taking control with a weak hand.

I might have folded this one preflop because of the position, but you're right; if I do play it I too have been limping because it's not great, but then I don't know anything about the hands that stay in. A raise would narrow the range of hands at least slightly even at this level.

 

[zebranky]

I might have folded this one preflop because of the position, but you're right; if I do play it I too have been limping because it's not great, but then I don't know anything about the hands that stay in. A raise would narrow the range of hands at least slightly even at this level.

Exactly right. I've read most of the books by the "pro" poker players, and one of the basic themes running throughout all their books (other than Negranu) is to never limp in if you're the first one into a pot. Even though AT is a marginal hand, the last thing you want to do is signal a weak hand PF - you're just asking to be re-raised out.

 

[ChuckTs]

I'm not fond of the term myself. What I should have said is at this level you might still get called by someone playing a T5 or some other longshot.

This is exactly what I mean; why do you want to force a weaker hand out?

 

[NineLions]

This is exactly what I mean; why do you want to force a weaker hand out?

Good point Chuck. I get so wrapped up in avoiding getting beat by longshot draws that I forget that the point isn't to chase them out, it's to make them make a mistake if they do choose to chase. Over the longer term they won't hit enough if I make the pot odds not in their favour.

My problem is that if they hit, I have to be able to see that they've hit and get out, instead of thinking that they couldn't have chased after the pot odds I've given them.