Good approach to hand?

shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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Aug 18, 2006
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I was just wondering if this type of play is -EV in the long run.
All comments will be appreciated.
I would like to add that the table is playing pretty much ABC poker


Stacks:
* SB with $10.40
* BB with $3.90
* UTG with $5.00
* UTG+1 with $5.80
* MP1 with $6.75
* MP2 with $9.70
* MP3 with $4.95
* CO with $9.75
* BTN with $9.85

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: pokerstars
* * Dealt to BB:7♥ 9♥
* * Sklansky group 5
Preflop:
* * 2 players fold.
* * MP1 calls [$0.10]
* * 4 players fold.
* * SB calls [$0.05]
* * Hero: checks
* * Total folds this street: 6
* * Potsize: $0.3
Flop:
* * 9♣ 2♥ J♦
* * SB: checks
* * Hero bets [$0.30]
* * MP1 calls [$0.30]
* * 1 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 1
* * Potsize: $0.9
Turn:
* * 5♥
* * Hero bets [$0.50]
* * 1 players fold.
* * MP1 raises $0.50 to $1
* * Hero calls [$0.50]
* * Potsize: $2.9
River:
* * A♥
* * Hero bets [$1]
* * MP1 raises $4.35 to $5.35 [ all-in ]
* * Hero calls [$1.50] [ all-in ]
Results:


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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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The flop bet is a little loose, but betting is a lot better than doing something like check-calling.

As played on the turn, we should probably be shutting down, but with the flush draw we can check-call with our outs. A bet isn't that great of an idea since getting raised at that point sucks and we don't want to be pushed off our draw or what might even be the best hands.

So usually, bet-fold flop, ch-c turn, ch-f river if unimproved. Betting or check-raising is fine on the river but I like betting so as not to see your opponent check behind.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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The flop bet is a little loose, but betting is a lot better than doing something like check-calling.

As played on the turn, we should probably be shutting down, but with the flush draw we can check-call with our outs. A bet isn't that great of an idea since getting raised at that point sucks and we don't want to be pushed off our draw or what might even be the best hands.

So usually, bet-fold flop, ch-c turn, ch-f river if unimproved. Betting or check-raising is fine on the river but I like betting so as not to see your opponent check behind.
I normally check/fold if not paired with the board but thought the flop bet was fine, if my flop bet had been re-raised then it would have been an easy fold.
As for the turn, I usually bet it especially when paired with the board and drawing to the flush, villians re-raise was just too small to force me to fold the turn because he had given me the right odds to call.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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As played on the turn, we should probably be shutting down, but with the flush draw we can check-call with our outs. A bet isn't that great of an idea since getting raised at that point sucks and we don't want to be pushed off our draw or what might even be the best hands.

But with the added FD doesn't leading out disguise the flush at little bit if the flush hits since we've led at both the flop and turn? Plus it acts as a blocking bet giving Shine likely odds to see the river, as happened. At $10NL a raise is usually a minraise or only a slight bit more, or a shove from short stacks.

The problem with check/calling the turn is when your opponent sees the check as weak and bets pot or more, which happens to me a lot at these levels.
 
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switch0723

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Im with NL as opposed to chuck, i prefer leading out on the turn for 3 reasons.

1. We could be missing out on value aginst q,t type hands

2. We disguise the strength of our hand, we arent going to be put on a flush if it hits river. Well that is if our bet is called and not raised.

3. We wont always have the best hand here, but we will sometimes (that line seems like a load of crap, but it kind of explains what im thinking). If we have the best hand, we cant afford to check as that opens the door for villain to bet a decent amount and push us off what may very well be the best hand. Also by leading out, we can get hands that have us crushed, such as 8,9 to fold. OR we may just take the pot down as it is, which would be nice
 
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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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This is much closer than I thought (kind of whipped up an answer the first time around without thinking as I usually do). You two bring up some interesting points, and I'm kind of on the fence here.

One thing I disagree with is your #2, switch. It's a backdoor draw and your opponent will rarely put you on a FD. Your line looks exactly like a jack that is afraid of the ace and doesn't want to get raised off their hand.

The main issue here is whether or not we should be double barreling to push him off a better hand, or check. Not whether or not we'll get value on the river. Both players are short and the money's probably going in on the river if we improve unless our opponent turns out to have a busted draw or something.

I don't mind either betting or checking tbh, but I think I check here. It doesn't sound like shinedown has any fantastic reads on the guy, so we should probably assume he's playing a style relatively close to 'ABC' as he mentioned, and that would mean that he's probably on a jack/QT most of the time and neither of those hands are folding on that turn. When you're shooting for a double barrel, one question you should ask is 'how scared is my opponent of the turn card', and usually with the 5, nothing's changed, and your opponent isn't afraid at all.

Anyways, some better reads would help tremendously.
 
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switch0723

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Anyways, some better reads would help tremendously.

^^^^ This + any stats available that would help? + an explanation of what abc poker is, is it tag, lag etc etc, would help give us a better approach

One thing I disagree with is your #2, switch. It's a backdoor draw and your opponent will rarely put you on a FD. Your line looks exactly like a jack that is afraid of the ace and doesn't want to get raised off their hand.

^^^I dunno about that, if we check call the turn (if we are getting the odds to call) and the river completes our flush, we have to come out betting, we probably agree on that right?

Well if we had a jack, surely we wouldnt do that, who check/calls then fires out with top pair? Villain will at least put us on 2 pair at a minimum you would imagine, so therefore we wouldnt get any action from q,j type hands, assuming they are good enough to fold, which i am assuming if they play 'abc' poker.

Also if it goes check check, it will be hard for us to get paid off if we do hit. Id rather take the line of building the pot now.

Edit: I just saw the stack sizes and that has changed my opinion. Being short stacked as we are, we now lack the ability to build the pot on the turn, allowing us to put out a big value bet on the river. I now prefer check/calling this turn since we can open push if we hit our flush and still expect to be paid off by q,j type hands since we have a small stack
 
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