Flopped nut straight against extremely tight player

pokernut

pokernut

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This was last night playing 1/2 NL live. Villain was so tight that his nickname at the table was Da Nutz. I had been playing with him for about 4hrs and he had only shown the nuts the whole time, nothing else. He played top ten hands and that was it from what I had seen.

I have about $450 in chips, villian has slightly less

I am on the Button with Q 10
3 limpers including villian who is in the cutoff
I limped on the button

Flop: A K J rainbow

checked to villian who potted it
I call
Everyone else folds

Turn: 7

Villian bets $40 ( put him on either AK or AJ here, he was pretty passive and capable of not raising this pre )
I call

River: A

Villian bets $200 -- An overbet, but I had seen him do this before with the nuts.

Pot is now slightly over $300.

I really hated to see that A, and his bet confused the hell out of me.

What does he have? What to do now?
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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Really it depends on how often he's overbet with the nuts. This'd be a really tough call to make. You know he at least has trips, but going by what you said, this may have to be a fold.
 
F

Freakakanus

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Why no re-raise on the turn?
If you like your read on him up until this point, I think you have to fold...... but anyone who's played me knows I would call just to see.......
 
pokernut

pokernut

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I thought about re raising the turn but figured I had him drawing to four outs and he would do the betting for me, then I can get him committed on the river. Bad move? I guess if you put someone on two pair you could re-raise the turn and they aren't going anywhere if that's indeed what they have. Would probably have given me more info bout his hand in retrospect.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I'm with Freak as far as the repop. But if you've left him with 4 outs and one hits, are you calling anyways?

To look at it from his perspective, since you didn't raise preflop, can he assume you don't have AK/AJ? And maybe he's got the same hand as you and puts you on KJ where he's winning big if you call, or on QT and he can get you to fold?
 
pokernut

pokernut

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I'm with Freak as far as the repop. But if you've left him with 4 outs and one hits, are you calling anyways?

Well, my original plan was no, if an ace came on the river i'm done. I really went into the tank here though for what seemed like ten minutes (probably only 3). I suffer from sever poker hand paranoia lol, and I was thinking maybe that's just what's happening here and I really have the best hand.

I ended up mucking it and he said " I knew you didn't have the ace". I was like no, I had the nut straight. He said that's a terrible fold then, I had K8.

I really didn't believe him though. I don't think this dude's ever played K8 in his life.

I think it was the right lay down, it's just been haunting me.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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This was last night playing 1/2 NL live. Villain was so tight that his nickname at the table was Da Nutz. I had been playing with him for about 4hrs and he had only shown the nuts the whole time, nothing else. He played top ten hands and that was it from what I had seen.

I have about $450 in chips, villian has slightly less

I am on the Button with Q 10
3 limpers including villian who is in the cutoff
I limped on the button

Flop: A K J rainbow

checked to villian who potted it
I call
Everyone else folds


I hate this call, really really hate it. This board is just soo likely to hit him I dont see a reason to slow play this. Its not like you flopped a set on all low cards, this board either hit him or he is folding no reason to slow play this. Why are we slow playing anyway? what can he possibly catch on turn or river that would let him pay us off?

even if he has small pair I doubt he is going to pay us off too much if he hits set.


Turn: 7

Villian bets $40 ( put him on either AK or AJ here, he was pretty passive and capable of not raising this pre )
I call

Same as flop.


River: A

you screwed up just fold and forget about it.


Villian bets $200 -- An overbet, but I had seen him do this before with the nuts.

Pot is now slightly over $300.

I really hated to see that A, and his bet confused the hell out of me.

What does he have? What to do now?



see my comments in red

 
pokernut

pokernut

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^^^^^ Yeah, I know that was really bad. I played it terribly. It's been eating at me how terribly I played it. . What I was thinking with slowplaying was that if just a piece of this flop hit him and I reraise, he's out if he doesn't have the two pair. If I flat call I can induce more betting out of him. It was misplayed and I realize.

Thanks for the feedback though.
 
Last edited:
B

bw07507

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^^^^^ Yeah, I know that was really bad. I played it terribly. It's been eating at me how terribly I played it. . What I was thinking with slowplaying was that if just a piece of this flop hit him and I reraise, he's out if he doesn't have the two pair. If I flat call I can induce more betting out of him. It was misplayed and I realize.

If this guy only plays premium top 10 hands, then he most likely did not just hit a piece of this flop, he either hit 2 pair, a set, or he has QQ, in which case he isnt betting and isnt paying you off.
 
arkadiy

arkadiy

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While those are good cards, not sure I could fold that. He would have to have AJ / AQ / AK.......I'm just not the guy who believes he hit that.... :p
 
F

fuuf

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Look, I don't think you played this bad at all. Villain most likely had the two pair on the flop, and even with a re-raise, I'm sure he would have called anyways (unless it was a HUGE raise). Look, in a situation like this, the BEST move you can do is to try and trap him. At worst (if he has flopped a set), you are 4-1 odds or so to win. If he has two pair, he only has 4 outs, that's 16 percent chance to win, this is definitely a trap situation. You played this correctly, from beginning to end. If not for the bad beat, you would have won a huge some of money from this rock.

Also, I am curious to how he plays preflop, with raises and such. It seems like if he had say JJ, he would have at least raised preflop dont you think??? My guess is he had an ace, probably ace jack.
 
J

joeeagles

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Look, I don't think you played this bad at all. Villain most likely had the two pair on the flop, and even with a re-raise, I'm sure he would have called anyways (unless it was a HUGE raise). Look, in a situation like this, the BEST move you can do is to try and trap him. At worst (if he has flopped a set), you are 4-1 odds or so to win. If he has two pair, he only has 4 outs, that's 16 percent chance to win, this is definitely a trap situation. You played this correctly, from beginning to end. If not for the bad beat, you would have won a huge some of money from this rock.

Also, I am curious to how he plays preflop, with raises and such. It seems like if he had say JJ, he would have at least raised preflop dont you think??? My guess is he had an ace, probably ace jack.

I agree with this 110%, I think you played this great PN, you put yourself in a position where you could really get him good. With the read you have on this guy, and the way he was betting, there are only 2 hands he could have up to the turn, either a set or 2 pair, with the 2 pair being more likely. By passively calling him he puts you on a weaker A or weaker 2 pair if he has AK, setting up the stage for you.

I think your thought of trying to commit him on the river was the way to go, if the A doesn't come he'll probably bet out ~$100 (pot bet) and you nailed him. Now, he claims to have K8? And he bet $200 into a $100 pot? Lmao, with his profile that's about as likely as my dog walking on the moon tomorrow. There is nothing sure in this world, but I think you certainly made the correct lay down.

Don't let the hand haunt you PN, you played it correctly, I would have done the same. It was just bad luck, an opportunity lost after a perfect setup because he just got lucky in a fat way. I really hate this game at times lol. On the bright side, in the big misfortune, you made a HELL of a lay down. Be happy about that, because its the sign of a good player, being able to throw a made hand in the muck in face of evidence your hand is now 2nd best. Great job sir.



P.S. Next time don't tell him what you had, you might play him again.
 
pokernut

pokernut

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Thanks for the input.

Let's say that I do play this hand more aggressively, what do you think happens then? If indeed he flopped 2 pair, if I re-raise he's not going anywhere probably. The reason I think I played it badly was with that flop I want to get as many chips in as possible, whatever way that is. You figure the flop either hit him very nicely and he's attached to the hand, or it didn't and he goes away.

Granted he probably isn't going anywhere with his betting this, and it would have ended up costing me more in that particular hand because he would have sucked out on the river, but wouldn't that be +EV in the long run against this particular opponent with my read to play this aggressively?
 
pokernut

pokernut

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Also, I am curious to how he plays preflop, with raises and such. It seems like if he had say JJ, he would have at least raised preflop dont you think??? My guess is he had an ace, probably ace jack.

Well he would raise just about all of the hands he played pre when out of position, but they were all very good hands and he was usually first or second in there. In position with many limpers in already I had seen him limp along with everyone with AK before, so I knew he was capable of that.

I'm sure he would have raised a big pair in that situation pre, so I wasn't putting him on a set. I was fairly sure it was AK or AJ. Even with him not showing after the hand. He definately knew I was making a big lay down even before I told him what I had. You'd think he'd want to try and monkey tilt me by showing the bluff there if he did. So that reassures me that he had it.
 
J

joeeagles

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Thanks for the input.

Let's say that I do play this hand more aggressively, what do you think happens then? If indeed he flopped 2 pair, if I re-raise he's not going anywhere probably. The reason I think I played it badly was with that flop I want to get as many chips in as possible, whatever way that is. You figure the flop either hit him very nicely and he's attached to the hand, or it didn't and he goes away.

Granted he probably isn't going anywhere with his betting this, and it would have ended up costing me more in that particular hand because he would have sucked out on the river, but wouldn't that be +EV in the long run against this particular opponent with my read to play this aggressively?


If you play it more aggressively it probably costs you more, but my main consideration in this case is that he might fold early in the hand reading you for a straight, and although he ended up sucking you out, the bottom line is that when you flop the nuts you want him to hang around with his 2 pair and not fold it.

This is the reason why I strongly disagree with those who suggest you needed to raise the flop after he made a pot size bet. I mean come on, you flop the nuts on a rainbow board we want him to stay in this pot with 2 pair, NOT fold. It's almost as if everyone wants you to raise to get him to fold when you have a monster, instead of trapping him and trying to get him committed as you did, which was a brilliant strategy IMO. This was a great flop to trap him staying passive on that round and making him believe you have Ax, leaving him with the comfortable feeling he's ahead as his turn bet (pot size again) proves. And by all indications he's ready to pot bet again on the river with his 2 pair or set and now you have him nailed.

I can maybe agree with a turn raise if some like it but not the flop. Why do we want him to fold and escape cheap? To me this was an all-around terrific play by you including the lay down, buddy. You just got really unlucky here but if the river is a 6 and you get his ass good everyone would agree you played it brilliantly. Anything else is just results oriented because you got sucked out.

I say it again, good job and good thinking that deserved better luck.
 
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