Flopped K high flush; what's the proper bet?

[NineLions]

On the button with lots of limpers (that's why I chose this table) I flopped a King high flush.

If someone's got A-rag in spades, I'm dead. It's more likely someone has A-rag offsuit with the Ace of spades, so I have to bet enough to make him make a mistake seeing the next card(s) and/or to find out if I am dead.

Pot is 0.50 before the flop, 1.10 by the time betting gets to me. One of these minraisers may be pot-building with A-rag of spades, or one has just the Ace.

What's my bet? This is a 0.5/0.10 table so half the players probably never heard of pot odds.


pokerstars Game #8735696670: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/03/04 - 13:52:17 (ET)
Table 'Ampella' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: ActSci ($16.20 in chips)
Seat 2: numen0r1 ($9.90 in chips)
Seat 3: Ninelions ($5.20 in chips)
Seat 4: LosVagos ($11.30 in chips)
Seat 5: jengir3 ($5 in chips)
Seat 6: RadjaDao ($27 in chips)
Seat 7: trueTopSoul ($6.55 in chips)
Seat 8: aeph ($5.40 in chips)
Seat 9: Stein123 ($6 in chips)
LosVagos: posts small blind $0.05
jengir3: posts big blind $0.10
Stein123: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ninelions [7s Ks]
RadjaDao: folds
trueTopSoul: calls $0.10
aeph: folds
Stein123: checks
ActSci: calls $0.10
numen0r1: folds
Ninelions: calls $0.10
LosVagos: calls $0.05
jengir3: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qs Js 6s]
LosVagos: bets $0.10
jengir3: folds
trueTopSoul: raises $0.10 to $0.20
Stein123: raises $0.10 to $0.30
ActSci: folds
Ninelions: ????


And as a side question, what do you do if you're the one with the Ace spades offsuit? Call as long as you have pot odds? If you're in early position, do you bet small to grow the pot in advance?

 

[dan_ives]

nice 1

 

[NineLions]

Thanks guys, I was looking for something specific for this situation.

But in the meantime I found Phil Gordon, saying bet half the pot. In this situation, with 0.30 to call making the pot 1.40, half the pot would be another 0.70, or 1.00 total bet so that it's .70 to call a 1.40 pot to the next player. Unless the player in between is a calling station and it's the guy after him that has the ace, in which case it would become .70 to win 2.10 to him, which is better than the 3-2 odds he needs.

Given the level and situation, I'm thinking maybe slightly more than .70 raise to protect my hand.

 

[joosebuck]

if you are going to play k7s, pot preflop to collect the dead money. you have position. ABUSE IT.

 

[dj11]

I slow play this one.

 

[joosebuck]

if you slowplay this you need to be ready to ditch when another spade comes (outside of the As)

 

[dj11]

In this case, position may be a not so good thing. You assume the As is in play, somewhere. The alternative to slowplay for me would be 4x bb or 1/2 pot. Feeler like. I'm thinking at this point that the pot is mine. Being last to act after the turn will give mucho information, but also gives first to act a strong situation.

 

[ginNjuice]

You shouldn't have played the hand in the 1st place in my opinion. But since you did and now you're in this situation I'd make a large bet. Your position may help cover the strength of your hand and being at a micro limit table you're likely to get called with a large variety of hands with almost any bet. I'd say a raise to atleast a dollar is called for. I'd make it $1.20 to cut odds. I'd be happy to take this pot down right there but I doubt it would happen. I feel that the spade ace will call you most of the time so if it's out there you want them to pay for that last spade. If you get pushed all in after your raise you might have to think about it a little and evalute the player who pushed you but that's the kind of situations you put yourself in when you play K7 to begin with.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

I'm not sure of my math but follow my reasoning. You are assuming that one of those players has the As. I'm looking at them having not having it and are trying to protect whatever they have from the flush draw. That being the case I would call here. Now here is where my not so good math skills come into play. You call because you want to take the maximum amount you can get from them. There were 18 cards dealt out to this point. 5 spades are known to you. That leaves 8 left out of 31 cards. About a 4-1 chance of a spade showing up by the river. But there are 3 players beside yourself still in. I would make the assumtion that at least two of them have a spade in their hands leaving only 6 spades left. This is now looking like a 6-1 shot hitting . But throw in the factor that the only card that can beat you is the A of spades, it is well worthwhile just to lead them on. And if no spade turns up you are set to make a nice raise on the river and take down any callers at that point.

 

[NineLions]

I limped the K7 because of position and the pot odds; now I have to learn how to play it once I hit a hand.

Joose, thanks for pointing out the preflop option of taking the dead money. It's a play I didn't consider at the time and should have. I'm thinking now that K7s is not such a bad hand to make that play.


As usual, the hand histories I post are ones I screwed up and am wondering how badly, or I lost the hand and am wondering if I made the right play.

Unfortunately people love to play aces, and with a minbet and two minraises before me, I should have realized one of the must have the ace. Instead, I got greedy/stupid and decided to take a risk that no other spade would hit and just called.

Then it got worse, as I convinced myself that my K by itself was still good when a spade hit, and paid the Ace off.

Kids, don't try this one at home.

 

[mrsnake3695]

I wasn't going to say anything about whether to to play K-7 or not. With position and alot of limpers I think it's fine to play these kind of hands as long as you know it can make alot of big second place hands.

Anyway as for the play of this hand. I think you must bet here. You most likely have the best hand so you should value bet about the size of the pot. What you say, size of the pot what about everyone that says you should bet a half to 2/3 size pot bet. Well the problem is that online as opposed to B&M players call alot bigger raises and like you said before, don't even know what pot odds are. At this level and even at higher levels the average online donk would have probably called and all-in with the ace of spades. So really your bet should not be looked at as a bet to protect your hand and try to get drawing hands to fold but rather as a value bet to try to get in a decent amount of money when you are ahead.

I also think the slow play here is a huge mistake. Why? Well several reasons, 1: as I said before they will call a value bet anyway so why not get them to put chips in while behind. If you get others to consistantly put in chips while behind you will win in the long run. 2: If you slow play and no spade comes how are you going to get anymore money? If someone is playing a single big spade whether it's the ace or even a queen, if no spade hits then they aren't going to call a bet on the river so your slow play only suceeds in getting more money in the pot if you are beat. The purpose of a slow play is when you have a monster to try to let someone catch up to a second best hand so you can get money from them. Here, if someone catches up they have a better hand then you. Also, slow plays are way way over used. It's ok to slow play a top full house or quads or when you know you have the absolute nuts or close to it but not when you have a hand that's suceptable to being sucked out on. Not only is your hand beated by the ace of spades if another spade hits but what about if the board pairs? Now you have to face the possibility of a full house. 3: One of the main rules of poker that has been around for ever is never give you opponent a free card to draw out on you. This is something that too many players forget in trying to be fancy. Playing a normal straight approach is often times more profitable then trying to make "plays". This is especially true in online where you have alot of calling stations and donks that will chase their gutshot to the river no matter what you bet. Make these guys pay for their stupid play for every card they get.

In short, make value bets as a rule and save the slow play for big big hands. Bet more than the book says when playing online since online players don't respect bets of less than the pot nor do they understand it's a mistake to call a bet without proper odds. I almost always bet the pot or a little more now and routinly get called by much lesser hands. If the pot is $10, why only make $5 when you can make $10 just as easy.

Ok enough rant for now. How many of you disagree?

 

[ChuckTs]

That's pretty much the definition of an action flop; lead/raise it to the river unless another non-As spade drops. Or of course if you get huge action and say another Q drops. If you run into an ace-high flush here, that's just another chalk-it-up-to-bad-luck play, but really you want to get as much money in the middle as possible here.

As for slowplaying, given the action and the texture of the flop it's a terrible play IMO. We have 3 players showing interest in the pot, no doubt one of them has the As or maybe even a smaller flush, and we're nearly guaranteed action if we reraise here. Pop it up to like $1.20-$2.

 

[mrsnake3695]

That's pretty much the definition of an action flop; lead/raise it to the river unless another non-As spade drops. Or of course if you get huge action and say another Q drops. If you run into an ace-high flush here, that's just another chalk-it-up-to-bad-luck play, but really you want to get as much money in the middle as possible here.

As for slowplaying, given the action and the texture of the flop it's a terrible play IMO. We have 3 players showing interest in the pot, no doubt one of them has the As or maybe even a smaller flush, and we're nearly guaranteed action if we reraise here. Pop it up to like $1.20-$2.

Great minds think alike.