flop set, getting value on the turn

J

joeeagles

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pokerstars Game #10937878975: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/07/14 - 16:24:30 (ET)
Table 'Georgia' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: tntbone ($47.15 in chips)
Seat 2: Iceman3008 ($8.35 in chips)
Seat 3: O'DoyleRules ($87.30 in chips)
Seat 4: DJWhiteMike ($49.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Fidji76 ($13.15 in chips)
Seat 7: RocketsBall ($51.55 in chips)
Seat 8: giarre ($27.75 in chips)
giarre: posts small blind $0.25
superneuz: is sitting out
tntbone: posts big blind $0.50
superneuz leaves the table
stapie has timed out while disconnected
stapie: is sitting out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to giarre [Jh Js]
Iceman3008: folds
O'DoyleRules: folds
stapie is connected
DJWhiteMike: raises $0.50 to $1
Fidji76: calls $1
RocketsBall: folds
giarre: raises $2.50 to $3.50
stapie leaves the table
tntbone: folds
DJWhiteMike: calls $2.50
Fidji76: calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [Jc 8d 2c]
giarre: checks
DJWhiteMike: checks
Fidji76: bets $9.65 and is all-in
Mosquitoe joins the table at seat #5
giarre: calls $9.65
DJWhiteMike: calls $9.65
*** TURN *** [Jc 8d 2c] 5♦
giarre:?


I know that the 1st thing that'll be said is: why buy-in short? That's my fault and there are no excuses for it, but the reason I did it is because I was 4-tabling for the 1st time at $50 MAX and kind of felt insecure, mostly because I don't really play much ring games and I never 4-tabled even tournies. I know its not a valid excuse but at least I say it as it is rather than making up that I lost it the hand before and didn't have time to refill.

So I have a set and the check on the flop turns out to be a good idea because 1 villain goes all-in for his last $9.65. Smooth calling that also seemed good because I got Mike to follow and throw in money. Now on the turn we have 2 flush draws and I'm left with $14.60, pot is now $39.95. As far as reads I was 4 tabling, but for Mike I can say he looks more on the tight side, so for him to minraise and then call my reraise PF, his range has to be AQ, AT, KQ which could of course be suited, also anything like TT to maybe as low as 77. I'm sure he doesn't have an overpair nor any junk speculative hand lijke Q9, but he could very well have 2 suited high cards, and he has invested $13+ in this pot.

For sure I know that turn didn't help him, cause I seriously doubt he has 55. Being that I'm left with $14.60, what should I do to get the most? If I go all-in and he has a flush draw it would be a stretch for him to call because odds are less than 4 to 1 and he has no implied odds.

Would you worry about the flush draw and shove even if you might lose him or make like a $5/6 bet to keep him in hoping the river brings a high card and you get the rest? Even if river isn't a high card I could still get more anyway because of pot size, he still could call a bet at that point.

So what would you do?
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I would just have to shove here. In order to bet enough to screw over his pot odds you're going to be nearly all in in and he's just going to re raise you anyway.
 
heatfan03

heatfan03

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Feb 22, 2007
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I would just have to shove here. In order to bet enough to screw over his pot odds you're going to be nearly all in in and he's just going to re raise you anyway.
agreed throw it all in then u gain fold equity as well ( i think fold equity is the right term lol)
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I'm trying to figure out what he has, that minraise/calls preflop, checks the flop, then calls the all-in. Mind you, the flop call is after you have called as well.

Other than a flush draw, I'm not sure what he has. AJ should play at the flop. 88 should get more money in on the flop rather than calling, I don't know if T9s minraises preflop. Maybe TT/99?

So I would worry about the flush draw, but all you can do is shove with your stack size. As you say, calling kept him in but shoving is all that you can do to continue to make him pay.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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Easiest shove in the history of poker. Why wait for a scare card on the river that will kill your action, or let him get away from a missed flush draw for free. You have less than half the pot behind, you have the nuts, and it's unlikely he'll fold because he's getting such good odds with any reasonable holding.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Yeah, definitely shove. You don't have a ton left in relation to the pot anyway. You have the nuts, but still no need to get too caught up in slowplaying or underplaying here.

If the guy had a made hand that was willing to call the flop, he's really really often calling a shove on this innocuous turn. If he has a drawing hand that was willing to call the flop, well then you don't want to give him the right odds to draw or, an even greater sin, let him see a free river when he'll only put more money in the pot if he hits his straight or flush (aka a negative freeroll).
 
J

joeeagles

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Thanks for your responses, I appreciate your imput.

Ok, so I see all you guys agree on shoving. Its what I did (sorry lost HH) and Mike folded, river was Kh and I won the hand, other villain had Tc4c (!!!!! yes he called PF reraise with that).

Reason why I posted is because I lost Mike with the shove. Considering that I'm shortstacked and obviously pot committed anymore, and being that we can't really be sure he's on a flush draw, I was wondering if anyone would've considered betting less, maybe somewhere around $6-$8, to try to get more, although it does carry some risk with that board. It was something that I thought about before shoving, and after he folded to it I was convinced I misplayed it.

I decided for the shove because I figured that if he called the $9.65 he'd call my $14.60 also, same thing that Combu is saying, but I guess he was smart enough to understand that I slowplayed the flop and he threw away his overcard(s) or smaller PP. My image was certainly tight ( I'm almost never LAG on cash games, on top of it I was 4-tabling) and that probably had a role in his decision, because he didn't instafold, he used up some of the clock before folding. The K on the river got me kind of upset and made me really regret the shove, but I see all you guys would have done the same.

I realize I didn't mention I had a tight image, which changes things a little because if he's observant he has to put me on a big hand like an overpair or exactly a set. It's the usual "what your opponent thinks you have". Even if pot is big I think he figured I wouldn't be doing this on a draw.

I doubt though that it would make a difference in your answers because all of you ageed that I had to protect against the flush.
 
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