Extractng maximum Value without getting sucked out?

calibanboy

calibanboy

Guest
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Total posts
363
A dream position? But how do you acheive the title?

What do you do and why?

(please note that MP2 and CO have just posted blinds as their first hand = 7 limpers )


pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($419.95)
UTG ($151)
UTG+1 ($693.30)
MP1 ($366.85)
MP2 ($404.35)
MP3 ($737.40)
CO ($256)
Button ($139.50)
SB ($304.35)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A
heart.gif
, A
diamond.gif
. MP2 posts a blind of $9. CO posts a blind of $6.
UTG calls $6, 1 fold, MP1 calls $6, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls $6, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $6, SB completes, Hero .....?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
...raises to $30-$50.

Soo many people in this hand, I just pot it and take it from there. We'll be out of position so we don't want to make too inviting of a raise and have to play in an awkward-ish spot.

If you've been in any way aggressive lately, you'll get lots of action from medium pairs and better.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
1-2-3-4-5-6-7 other people in the pot if I'm counting right.. holy crap. I'd make it at least $40, expect action from at least one of them, which is more than fine. Some people will make it like $24 here, which is a really really huge mistake because once the first guy calls, it's very likely every guy after will (correctly) call, and your life will be hell on the flop.
 
KyleJRM

KyleJRM

Visionary
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Total posts
735
You can't be thinking of extracting when you have AA pre-flop against that many limpers. When you have AA, especially out of position, you need to think isolation first. Isolate, then extract. AA against 2 other cards is ahead pre-flop. AA against 10 other cards is not.

3xBB+1 bb for each limper gives you a raise to $48. I'd probably go even further than that, but that's the minimum here.
 
calibanboy

calibanboy

Guest
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Total posts
363
OK so I seem to have done what you suggested that I do ( broadly) by raising. However I get plenty of action, but also have a good flop.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($419.95)
UTG ($151)
UTG+1 ($693.30)
MP1 ($366.85)
MP2 ($404.35)
MP3 ($737.40)
CO ($256)
Button ($139.50)
SB ($304.35)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A
heart.gif
, A
diamond.gif
. MP2 posts a blind of $9. CO posts a blind of $6.
UTG calls $6, 1 fold, MP1 calls $6, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls $6, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $6, SB completes, Hero raises to $42, UTG calls $36, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $36, CO folds, Button calls $36, SB folds.
Flop: ($195) 4
heart.gif
, A
club.gif
, 4
diamond.gif
(4 players)
Hero ....???


How would you play from here?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Well although I hate slowplaying, it's really unlikely that flop has helped anyone. We're in a great spot with the lock hand, but it doesn't look like we'll get much more action from this unless we give them at least a free turn.

A check here makes it look like we're giving up on a failed PF steal, and maybe we can squeeze some more value out of some medium pairs or maybe let KQ-type hands catch up on the turn and pay us off some more. If we check and get even luckier with a magic 2-outer for a smaller pair, we'll get stacked very nicely.

The stack sizes make this one even more interesting...utg just might shove with any two after calling off that much of his stack PF.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
omg i'm drooling... such a dream situation. your PF raise is pretty good, i was afraid you were gonna make it much too small

agreed with chuck for the check. it's not like it's going to look suspicious, because you're probably only slowplaying that hard with this many players on the pot if you hold exactly AA... maybe A4, or 44, but in those cases you still might not because there would be more aces out. the likelihood of any of those holdings is really small.

i mean, a check is exactly what you're going to do when you have JJ-KK.. that many players in following PF action, you're not going to cbet with an A on the board

so just check and give someone the chance to fill up/pair up on the next street if nobody has anything now
 
calibanboy

calibanboy

Guest
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Total posts
363
OK - again, I do what you Say and Check

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($419.95)
UTG ($151)
UTG+1 ($693.30)
MP1 ($366.85)
MP2 ($404.35)
MP3 ($737.40)
CO ($256)
Button ($139.50)
SB ($304.35)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A
heart.gif
, A
diamond.gif
. MP2 posts a blind of $9. CO posts a blind of $6.
UTG calls $6, 1 fold, MP1 calls $6, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls $6, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $6, SB completes, Hero raises to $42, UTG calls $36, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $36, CO folds, Button calls $36, SB folds.
Flop: ($195) 4
heart.gif
, A
club.gif
, 4
diamond.gif
(4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets $60, Button folds, Hero.......?


What do you do now?
 
KyleJRM

KyleJRM

Visionary
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Total posts
735
Shove.

And if they turn over 44, come make a thread about it :)
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

Visionary
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Total posts
693
I like all of it so far. I probably flat call this and let him try again on the turn. You've got ~$400 to get in the middle, and the pot would be around $320, so if he leads you can call or push and get it all-in depending on the lead.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
Joined
May 28, 2006
Total posts
1,804
Hi all.

My thoughts here.

U must be sitting thinking "please Lord let him have the other Ace!!!" :D

He probably has the holdings suggested - JJ-KK/ AK (please not 44 !!!)

IMO, I think if u come over the top and go all in he has the Ace u will probably get action - possibly.

However, I would want my next move to look like a "I`m not convinced u have the Ace u r trying to represent. I have a big PP I want to know where I stand" So I think in this situation I would reraise an amount that looks like info gathering - so possibly 1/4 pot.

The reason I say this is if he does not improve his hand on river u r out of position to make him bet (If he does not have an ace you bet he will probably fold)

I think, however, a small reraise might get him to call in the hope of improving his hand on river.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
UTG is still in the hand, and if we can get him to at least call getting what he perceives as good odds, we'll have him committed to the hand. going all-in seems overzealous, might fold out AQ from the big stacked guy... small raise screams we have a monster. just call and let him convince himself you only did so because of the tremendous pot odds he was laying
 
calibanboy

calibanboy

Guest
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Total posts
363
The thing is when your trying to get maximum value, you always think that you could have done more if you get folds too quickly.

I agree that the only hand that is going to beat me is Quad 4's. The person already has Quad fours or he does not. if he has them then no matter what happens, all the chips are going in the middle at some point.

If he does not have them then the only way I can see him carrying on is with 4x or with an Ax. 45s might call the preflop raise. If so he has 1 out. thats a risk that is worth taking for him, as he woudl think he is ahead anyway. If he has Ax would be a terribly played preflop in retrospect and if so he is likely to just keep calling.

I agree that I should have hestitated, to show thinking time, and then flat called and allowed him to catch up. As you can see from the below I scared him away. There is a "Potential" to get additional value here that I did not get. But it is only potential - I may have hit the maximum and its possible that my small raise could have been JJ-KK

my comments on the hand.
- My raise to 42 was "ok/good". I slimmed the field slightly. However with 3 callers Iwas still vulnerable.
- The flop was "ok"for me - it protected my hand big time. However at the expense of reducing the chance of getting people to bet/call with only 1 other ace out there.
- What would I have done if the flop have been 6,7,8 Suited. Its very very possible/likely I would be behind.
- I would have prefered a 4k4 flop. I am just as likely ( almost) to be in the lead. But in this case am far more likely to get action and hence likely to extract better value.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($419.95)
UTG ($151)
UTG+1 ($693.30)
MP1 ($366.85)
MP2 ($404.35)
MP3 ($737.40)
CO ($256)
Button ($139.50)
SB ($304.35)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A
heart.gif
, A
diamond.gif
. MP2 posts a blind of $9. CO posts a blind of $6.
UTG calls $6, 1 fold, MP1 calls $6, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls $6, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $6, SB completes, Hero raises to $42, UTG calls $36, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $36, CO folds, Button calls $36, SB folds.
Flop: ($195) 4
heart.gif
, A
club.gif
, 4
diamond.gif
(4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets $60, Button folds, Hero raises to $120, UTG folds, MP3 folds.
Final Pot: $315


As it happend I made a profit of 35.5 BB from this hand. Sure I would liked it to be better. But its not bad for one hand that could have been vulnerable with so many in the pot. Had I raised to say 60 Preflop Its likely would have only won 7BB. Its balance and a tough one. I guess I have to be happy.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

Cardschat Elite
Joined
May 28, 2007
Total posts
2,974
Check-raise SCREAMS strength, don't worry about getting sucked out on. Even if the guy HAS a four, the fourth one isn't going to come 95% of the time. Your hand is virtually unbeatable.
 
calibanboy

calibanboy

Guest
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Total posts
363
Check-raise SCREAMS strength, don't worry about getting sucked out on. Even if the guy HAS a four, the fourth one isn't going to come 95% of the time. Your hand is virtually unbeatable.

Hi emperor. I agree a C/R does scream strength. having said that its also a known bluff, especially from the type of player who real estate raises with lots of limpers.

I may not have been clear w.r.t suckouts.

My View is that

- Preflop I am vulnerable unless i clear some of the deadwood out with a raise.
- Once I have 3 callers That i am still vulnerable ( before we see the flop ), see my 6,7,8 suited example. Basically any middle cards can flop a set, 2P or draw and I am vulnerable with 3 players.
- Once we see the actual flop then I am not worried about the suckout.
- If he has 44 or 4x and beats me - then fine. if he has 4x he will go all in to my bet anyway.
- My point of the title does not relate to the final decision of this hand, based on the actual flop texture but relates to the general way to play AA against 7 limpers.

I agree that I think it ( C/R ) was probably the wrong move in this hand in this position. At the very leat I denied a chance to let him catch up a little. In short I thought either he has the ace or he does not. If he has it - lets get those chips in the pot.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Well the thing is that you're also going to get some action from smaller pairs who think they can push you off KK and under. Probably not much, but some. Check-calling will induce that on the turn sometimes, and if they check behind you still have a value betting opportunity on the river.

Like combu said, we can also commit the short stack here and get more dead money in the middle by ch-calling.

The ch-r is a common bluff, like you said, but check-minraise is rarely if ever a bluff. Especially with two other opponents facing you. You played it great up until that point.
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

Visionary
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Total posts
693
I know what you're getting at, but you aren't ever really in the position to get sucked out on. You have the nuts PF and flop the second nuts. Putting your opponent on quads is pretty much impossible so the thought of being sucked out on shouldn't really be coming into this hand. It's all about extracting here.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
Joined
May 28, 2006
Total posts
1,804
I still think a check/ small raise is an option.

The problem I can see here is that you don`t have position to bet the river (Unless I`m reading the hand wrong) You will be first to act after the river.

So, if you check call the turn the other guy will obviously stay in the pot.

If you check the river the guy will probably check meaning you get no more out of the pot.

However, a check raise on the turn will probably give him the odds to call - if he has Ax/ JJ-KK/ etc in his eyes he still has outs.

I doubt, by the way u bet, he will put you on pkt AA.

I would have checked the flop, not raised.

But, at the end of the day, it was a very nice pot ;)
 
Top