bottom 2 pair oop, what line do we take?

Tygran

Tygran

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Villain over 30 hands is 9/0/.5

I had intended to C/R this flop until it got bet and reraised, not my standard play but I was pretty familiar with one of the villains and a) he usually bets every time he's checked too and b) he bets his hand strength, weak when he has nothing as he did here. I did not expect the reraise. Two of the villains in this hand (not the reraiser) have been quite wild, almost always betting anything (showing down stuff like K high or busted gut shots).


What do you do here? Comment on the C/R line as well.


pokerstars Game #17044744302: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/04/27 - 23:23:34 (ET)
Table 'Idaios II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: SUM ACES ($42.55 in chips)
Seat 2: pokertiq ($5.55 in chips)
Seat 3: Guylncognito ($24.25 in chips)
Seat 4: negative1 ($19.75 in chips)
Seat 5: double_e5 ($29.85 in chips)
Seat 6: s-i-t-e-s ($24.35 in chips)
Seat 7: Tygran37 ($29 in chips)
Seat 9: spikemichael ($14.15 in chips)
Tygran37: posts small blind $0.10
marcsontilt: is sitting out
spikemichael: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tygran37 [5s 9s]
marcsontilt leaves the table
SUM ACES: folds
pokertiq: calls $0.25
Guylncognito: folds
negative1: calls $0.25
paservant joins the table at seat #8
double_e5: folds
s-i-t-e-s: calls $0.25
Tygran37: calls $0.15
spikemichael: checks
*** FLOP *** [5c Qd 9c]
Tygran37: checks
spikemichael: bets $0.50
pokertiq: folds
negative1: raises $2 to $2.50
Tygran37: ???
 
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Dr_Dick

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Get all your money in the pot...no one raised pre-flop so rule out QQ and there are club and straight draws out. If you happen to get nailed by Q9, nothing you can do but lick your wounds.

It is more realistic you are up against either draws, or top pair with a decent kicker (slow played AQ). You are going to be ahead here so many more times than behind.

Your options, smooth call and pray a club or straight card does not hit, then lead with a value bet...or just go ahead and reraise, announcing you have them crushed and hope negative1 is too proud to let his top pair go.
 
zebranky

zebranky

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stop-and-go

My suggestion is to flat-call the flop raise. There's already a fair amount in the pot, so even if you raised again, anyone on a draw is likely to call here. If the initial bettor bumps it up, you can fold on the assumption one of them has a set.
If you see the flop and it doesn't hit the drawing hands, raise hard (or push). Like the Dr. said, if someone has Q9 you're beat, but I think you're ahead unless a draw hits.
 
B

bw07507

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I am leading out on this flop almost every time in your position, but given your reads on the others, the C/R is not a bad idea. You say that spikemichael bets a lot (and bets small) when he has nothing. The other villain could have this read as well and be raising with a wide margin of hands here. I think you need to raise this one up to around 7 dollars as this is a draw heavy board and you dont want your pair counteirfitted on the turn or river. If anyone reshoves I think you can assume you are up against a set and fold this. If you get a flat call, shove any non club turn.
 
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Dr_Dick

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I'm not saying it is not possible...but I really have a hard time with thinking your up against a set (QQ,99,55), because you hold 95 and there was no raise pre-flop. I guess one possibility given spike bet out post flop is a big blind special Q5.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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You say that spikemichael bets a lot (and bets small) when he has nothing. The other villain could have this read as well and be raising with a wide margin of hands here.

I think this is a key to the play at this point.

Also as above 55/99 are not that likely given you know where two of each are. Q9 is more likely, but given your read on the first villain, KQ/QJ, maybe AQ seem most likely. A total bluff is not impossible either again based on your read of the other player.
 
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bw07507

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Yea, after rethinking this I think we have to call if one of them shoves over the top, given that there will be a lot in the pot already and it is unlikely that they will have 55/99 since you have one of each.
 
tenbob

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Your hand is not strong enough to slow play, and you got yourself in a nice tricky spot by not leading out. If you bet the flop, and get a raise and a reraise then its an easy fold.

Here however our line is totally weak, calling opens us up to a squeeze which we have to fold to. It also gives any flush draws a nice price three handed, I raise to $6/$7 and fold to a shove.
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

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^^^^^^ What TB said.
Shoving is bad. Popping it up to $7 will buy us information about his hand, and we can get out wounded rather than felted if we're beat.
 
Tygran

Tygran

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Your hand is not strong enough to slow play, and you got yourself in a nice tricky spot by not leading out. If you bet the flop, and get a raise and a reraise then its an easy fold.

Here however our line is totally weak, calling opens us up to a squeeze which we have to fold to. It also gives any flush draws a nice price three handed, I raise to $6/$7 and fold to a shove.


Yeah thinking back maybe it wasn't the best line.. it isn't what I normally would do either, but in this case I was attempting (incorrectly so maybe?) to exploit the tendancies of a couple of the other players in the hand.

I also don't exactly consider a check/raise like this to exactly be a slow play, I'm going to raise enough so that no draw has odds to keep going. And at this table I'm about 90% sure one of the next two to act will be betting something. They do every single chance they get!

I do agree that calling this is a bad bad idea.

So that leaves folding or raising. I raised to $6.50, first guy folded instantly, the raiser thought about for awhile and called. I kinda caught a break on the turn when the 5d hit. I say kinda cause it turns out I was way ahead at this point anyway, but the 5 certainly made decision making simple.

Now having a full house and not intending to go anywhere I checked the turn and he checked behind, river brought the Jc.

I led for about 1/2 pot, villain insta-shove and I called..


he had QJ, no clubs. So he was raising on the flop with top pair/jack kicker/no draw and called a re-reraise with it as well.
 
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Dr_Dick

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Nice hand...can't believe he called your reraise with QJ. He had to be reading you for a club draw.
 
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