Betting the Turn in Big Pots with missed board

H

homerphobe

Guest
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Total posts
57
I'm trying to decide whether I'm being too passive on the turn in a big pot. Please analyze these two hands and tell me if you'd play them different.

Live 4/8 Limit Holdem

Action folds to Villain in middle position.

Villain Raises.

Hero (As, Ks) 3 bets from the button.
SB folds.
BB calls
Villain calls.

Flop:
QsJh8d

Villain Checks.
Hero bets.
Villain calls.

Turn:
8s

Villain Checks.
Hero Checks.

River:
Kd

Villain Checks.
Hero Bets.
Villain calls.

I picked up a flush draw and inside straight draw with two overcards on the turn, but figured him for a check raise on the turn due to the 3 bet before the flop and my continuation bet. Should I have bet there? I checked because I put the player on or 99 or 1010 at least preflop and figured even with outs I was still an underdog when he called.
 
H

homerphobe

Guest
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Total posts
57
Hand 2

Hand two same game. Villain from last is villain 2.

Villain 1 raises from middle position.
Villain 2 calls from late position.
Hero (Qs, Qd) 3 bets from SB.
BB folds.
Villain 1 calls.
Villain 2 caps 4 bets.

Flop:
3s7dAh

Hero bets.
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls

Turn:
Jc

Hero checks.
Villain 1 checks.
Villain 2 checks.

River:
10c

Hero checks.
Villain 1 checks.
Villain 2 bets.
Hero calls.
Villian 1 folds.

Capped pot preflop. Figured someone had an ace-jack or better kicker. Should I have fired at the pot again from early position since nobody raised the flop? Again I feared a raise on the turn and wanted to showdown QQ for cheap.

FYI I think I played both properly, but I wanted to get a few other opinions.

Thanks.
 
FlopDeezNutz

FlopDeezNutz

Guest
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Total posts
35
I don't play a lot of limit, so my input may or may not be valid.
My understanding of limit is that you need to remain aggressive to maximize the value of your winning hands. Even if you miss your hand, you should lead out with a bet rather than check, because you don't want to give away a free card unless you've got close to the nuts.
On the first hand, villian checked the flop and called your raise. If he had any real confidence in the strength in his hand, he would have tried to build the pot to maximize his profits from an opponent that is leading out. He didn't do that, which makes your play on the turn somewhat confusing. I think you should have led out on the turn. I know that the second 8 on board is somewhat concerning, but it shouldn't be too concerning. Unless villian is an idiot, he is not calling preflop raises at that level in limit hold em with an 8 in his hand. My guess is he is holding AJ or AQ, maybe even KQ. So a bet on the turn would have been good. I know you haven't hit your hand yet, but as you said, you hit a straight and flush draw, giving you a lot of odds to win the pot. I would have pushed the action at this point. Your river play was fine.
I like your play on the second hand, because I see you losing a large pot with QQ in your hand against a board with an A on it. You made a nice bet out on the flop to feel out the hand. I wouldn't have called the river bet, unless you were calling for informational purposes to see what villian was playing with (slowplay, weak pair, middle pair). If that is the case, this is a good call. If not, I would have folded to any future bets once you had your bet on the flop called by both villians.
 
H

homerphobe

Guest
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Total posts
57
Read and River call

If he did have AJ or KQ like you said, that would kill one of my overcard outs. I'd have 14 outs with one to come, meaning I'd still be worse than a 2 to 1 underdog. Not a spot I want to be betting heads up.

I know you said you don't play a lot of limit, but a river call on the second hand is laying 8 to 1. Since both other players checked twice a lot of tricky (stupid?) players will bet with anything from last position to try to win 8 big bets with the worst hand. You just have to call in limit holdem. I've won a lot of pots with 3rd pair or ace high heads up in a big pot like that. BAD players play 4/8, I mean REALLY BAD. You'd be amazed.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
Hand 1: I like taking a free card on the turn - unlikely you'll be called by a worse hand if you bet, although you might fold out TT-type hands, but that's a bluff. You have tons of outs that you want to hit cheaply. So I think you played it fine.

Hand 2: I can't think of any hand you beat on this river, so I'd probably fold here as played. However after your flop bet isn't raised, maybe you could have fired again on the Turn, because it doesn't look like anyone has an Ace and you're probably ahead?
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

Caveman Eye Surgeon
Loyaler
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Total posts
3,769
Awards
2
I would probably bet the turn in the first one (continue to show strength).
I would play the 2nd one the same. I think not getting raised on that flop gives you the green light to call 1 bet on the river.
 
P

Prolaznik

Rock Star
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Total posts
217
First hand:
Your turn check is normal

Second hand:
I think you should fold on river, since villain bets against TWO opponents. So, unless you have some specific read on him, the probability of bluff is really small, significantly less than 5%, IMO.
Or lets try a different view - what kind of hand he should have to cap preflop betting? (without an ace)
KK, QQ, perhaps JJ or TT. There isn't one single hand you can beat! If he's an extremely loose player, he could have 99 or 88, but that's a very, very small probability...

If you ask me - he has a KK or his play is very unusual...
 
H

homerphobe

Guest
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Total posts
57
A little more info

The villiain in the first one and villain 2 in the second was the same guy and the guy was a real gambler. He was playing a lot of hands and seeing his stack fluctuate by a few hundred dollars while I was there. I definately figured he was capable of a cap and river bluff with an underpair. Also, I baited him to cap the flop saying something like, "Oh, THIS guys gonna cap it, let's play abig pot" or something like that. The was this guy was playing I could see him capping there with as little as QJs-T9s. Remember that he called 2 bets and then showed strength with the cap only after I raised him. I also had a sure fire read the the other opponent in the second hand would fold. In fact, he mucked his cards out of position the second I reached for chips. I didn't say any of this to begin with because I figured I could get advice based only on the cards, but I guess the situation affected my decision quite a bit as well, so I hope this allows people to understand my moves a bit better. I just didn't want to write a book. Also, I see no pattern to the answers people are giving so it's not really helping me evaluate my play much. I just know that it's a controversy, which is why I'm posting it in the first place.

FYI he didn't have KK. I'd say the hand, but aren't you supposed to avoid telling results because it doesn't matter?
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
FYI he didn't have KK. I'd say the hand, but aren't you supposed to avoid telling results because it doesn't matter?

Ahem, in theory. Definitely don't give results in the original post, but once you've got a bunch of sensible responses I think it's nice to know....
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
I'm trying to decide whether I'm being too passive on the turn in a big pot. Please analyze these two hands and tell me if you'd play them different.

...

Turn:
8s

Villain Checks.
Hero Checks.
I don't think you're being too passive here. Although you won't be checkraised that often, it's a bit of a disaster when it happens. The argument for betting a second barrell is that you may have the best hand. But if your opponent is somewhat standard, there aren't that many hands that he can have that you're currently ahead of, and people at 4/8 don't tend to fold that often, so there's not that much fold equity to be had.

So weigh your options: Is giving a free card when you're ahead more expensive than putting money in when you're behind? I say yes. If you're actually ahead at this point, some of the only hands he can have (unless he's really wild preflop) is AT, A9 and - maybe - KTs, K9s and A7/6/5/4/3/2. That's a pretty small range for that to be profitable. But if he has any of these hands, he has only three outs to beat you, so giving a free card only sacrifices ~6% of the pot.

Checking is good. Especially if he's the kind that may bluff the river when you check the turn. In that case it's even better. As a sidenote, you must call any river when you check behind on the turn, unless he's very passive.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Capped pot preflop. Figured someone had an ace-jack or better kicker. Should I have fired at the pot again from early position since nobody raised the flop? Again I feared a raise on the turn and wanted to showdown QQ for cheap.
I think you played this fine, but for a slightly different reason than you. That flop was a complete nightmare for you, and to really rub it in you get smacked with a T and a J on the turn and river. There's extremely little left of your opponent's range that you can beat.

Now, about the turn... I think it's close between bet/folding and check/folding. If we bet and someone raises, it's time to get out. Very few people will be so aggressive with K-J or TT that they'll raise an ace-high flop with this much action preflop. For this reason, if I think I can at least trust my opponent enough not to hate money, I think I like bet/calling.

Much for the same reason, check/folding may be okay, depending on where the bet comes from. With three people in, it should be clear to everyone involved that that ace looks like it helped someone. Reverse psychology: Two people have shown considerable strength preflop, and you bet into two people on an ace-high flop. That's really scary for a hand like 99. When you check the turn, I'm very hard pressed to find a somewhat normal player who doesn't happily take a free card with a hand that you can beat. Therefore, I think you can check and fold if someone bets, somewhat profitably.

As it played out, calling the river is... meh, I don't know. I don't see what you can beat. Sure, he'll have KJ sometimes, but does 99 really bet here? Maybe he would. With the read you include, a call is at worst 0 EV, so go ahead and make it and sleep better at night.
 
H

homerphobe

Guest
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Total posts
57
Ahem, in theory. Definitely don't give results in the original post, but once you've got a bunch of sensible responses I think it's nice to know....

You want to know the results? No problem. First hand Villain A10 the K on the river gave me top pair and villain the nut straight.

Hand two villain 1 mucked QQ, same as me, faceup and villain 2 1010 for a two out river set.

My whole reason for questioning whether I played them right is due to giving free cards to a guy drawing dead to 2 and 3 outs and then having him catch and win a big pot. I'm pretty sure that if I'd bet the turn in either hand I'd have won, but couldn't think of a hand that I could beat given the action preceding my move.
 
Related Betting Guides: CA Betting - AU Betting - UK Betting - SportsBetting Poker - BetStars
Top