Another pair of QQ's, do you call?

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TheReaper

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full tilt poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)
SB: $2.90
BB: $4.60
UTG: $9.85
UTG+1: $7.10
MP1: $10.00
Hero (MP2): $8.90
CO: $5.20
BTN: $6.00
Preflop: Hero is dealt
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(8 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.40
Flop: ($1.15)
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2s.gif
(2 Players)
UTG+1 bets $0.60, Hero raises to $1.80, UTG+1 raises to $4.80

Hero???

I don't have much of a read on him, he's only been at the table a bit, but has shown himself to be pretty loose. Because of the preflop action I didn't put him on A's or K's (although I would learn later that he will limp with a big hand preflop). Two pair seemed pretty remote unless it was 910 and even then I didn't figure he'd call preflop with that. A set was is a possibility, but again, unless it's pocket 22's I would've expected some sort of raise preflop. At this point I'm thinking A10 or A9, with JQ also being a possibility. Do you make this call?
 
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jeffred1111

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What are we beating that called our raise preflop ? JJ, 88 and down, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ and any hand with a ten. Now, would your opponent reraise with such a hand and the flop ? This is why having reads on people is so important in cash games. I don't see many of the hands we beat taking this line on the flop, unless he is a fool and plays draw like this (useless since he'll get shoved into a good number of times).

The whole limp and call raise is usually med pp trying to see a cheap flop, KQo type of hands or weak aces (unless like you said he likes to limp big hands). I almost never call in this spot, I either go AI or fold since the stack sizes will be awkard in comparison to the pot on the turn and you really don't want to give away your money trying to size a bet once you are beaten (if an ace comes an he had A9, he maybe would have folded). We lose pretty much all FE unless a brick comes and a lot of cards will look nasty on this turn.

But I'd say this looks like you're beaten 70% since if opponent is semi observant, he wouldn't reraise the preflop raiser on a complete bluff and the only hands that do this really are AT, sets or overpairs (wich are likely to be better than yours).
 
Effexor

Effexor

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This is completely read dependent. I think the prudent action is to fold, although I have seen a lot of people do this with TPTK.

Here's where I have trouble. Let me explain.

You have 2.30 in the pot, he's got a total of $7.10. Which means you'll end up putting in $4.80 more to win a total of $14.35. With these odds, you'll have to win slightly more than one third of the time to make this a long term profitable play. (about 34% is the break even point if you don't count rake)

So do you raise all in, or fold? Calling here is bad.

I'd fold.
 
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bw07507

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Go all in, u will see Q10, K10, A10 more often than you are beat at 10NL I believe. The fact that this player is loose makes this an even easier call.
 
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TheReaper

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I was thinking along the lines of you guys and pushing or folding, guess I should've phrased my question better. Calling would've pretty much put us all in. As I analyzed the play and the more I thought about it the more I was convinced I was ahead at this point. I pushed it all in. He called.

He showed up 3d5d and hit runner, runner for the flush. So, my read was right on the guy and I just got unlucky. As I analyzed the hand the flop play was the only place where I was iffy about what I did.

As I played and watched this guy more he was super passive preflop and hyper aggressive postflop.
 
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Threads13

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Why exactly are we raising the flop if we are going to be concerned when he 3-bets us? His bet means we need to make a decision on whether or not we want to get AI. Do you want to get AI? He may be doing this and will end up stacking off with TP or so, but I think he would be more likely to stack off with TP if you let him keep betting and raise him AI on the turn. Regardless, I don't think you should raise the flop if you don't want to get AI.
 
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TheReaper

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Why exactly are we raising the flop if we are going to be concerned when he 3-bets us? His bet means we need to make a decision on whether or not we want to get AI. Do you want to get AI? He may be doing this and will end up stacking off with TP or so, but I think he would be more likely to stack off with TP if you let him keep betting and raise him AI on the turn. Regardless, I don't think you should raise the flop if you don't want to get AI.

Yeah, I asked the wrong question, that was my debate, push it all in or fold. My dilemma was that I had no read on this guy. On the surface it looked like an easy shove, there wasn't much to be afraid of, however a set was a very real possibility, especially if he had pocket 2's. I think my biggest thing was I was surprised by the reraise, I didn't expect it honestly.
 
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Threads13

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Yeah, I asked the wrong question, that was my debate, push it all in or fold. My dilemma was that I had no read on this guy. On the surface it looked like an easy shove, there wasn't much to be afraid of, however a set was a very real possibility, especially if he had pocket 2's. I think my biggest thing was I was surprised by the reraise, I didn't expect it honestly.

My point is that you should be asking yourself if you like your hand if you get AI before you raise. Your raise is making AI the most likely scenario.
 
Blazing_Saddler

Blazing_Saddler

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No way I am folding that , not at that level of play, there are far more hands you are beating than not, Of course any reads could make a difference, but i am all in there for sure unless he is known as a rock.

I could pick numerous hands which would like that flop at that level, the one he had wouldn't have been one of them :D
 
Flops'm&Bets'm

Flops'm&Bets'm

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If you had a read on this player then your instincts were correct and he sucked out on you.
But if he were to have an open-ended straight draw, say J-8 there and you were to hit Q on the turn..then it is double jeopardy and would need a 10 on the river for a full-house to beat the hand.
Given the statement about the pot odds vs. pot committed, the odds pre-flop allowed you to fold without losing too much, and putting him on a bottom pair or 2 pair or having made the set with 10's (though not knowing that he plays PP by limping in).
It is still done and often for the purpose of a trap.
Even with the risk of a suck-out, the pot odds were not in the favor of making it profitable.
After the flop and the re-raise it is a FOLD!! thats just my play on it. Wait for a better place to take him down to the felt.
 
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destam

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I would of had to call to. I'm glad you did. Sorry about the bad beat though. Good read.
 
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