A Weird Live Hand Last Night

lasvegaspokerchick

lasvegaspokerchick

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Hi! Me again from the live tables in Las Vegas. Last night I was playing in a $1/$2 NL at Mandalay Bay and the action went like this:

I was straddling and the pot was raised to $15 pre-flop by an English fellow from the cut-off. I called with an A 5 Diamonds and Villain called. The flop came Q 5 3 ALL Spades. I checked, Villain checked, and the British guy looked at Villain and said, "You check?" Villain said "yes" and British guy then said "Check." The dealer started to burn and turn and the English guy plopped $35 out in the middle. Villain immediately objected, since English guy had already checked, and I agreed. The two of them started to get into it so floor was called. They made the correct decision that his check had to stand.

The turn then came the 2 of spades, bringing a one card spade flush. I checked, Villain immediately checked, and an obviously flustered Englishman checked behind us. The river came a Jack of Diamonds. I checked again and Villain bet out $40. Six months ago, this would have been an insta-muck for me, but I have since started to try to act on my reads more often, because they tend to be right. So I went into the tank and talked the hand out. I believed that if he had had a queen he would have bet the flop. I also felt that if he had had a spade, he would have bet the turn. So I reasoned that unless the Jack had "accidentally" hit him on the river, I might have him beat. I also considered the general weirdness that had surrounded the hand and the argument and thought that he might be trying to take advantage of the situation. Finally, I looked at him to try to pick up a tell one way or the other and he would not make eye contact and instead kept staring at the felt in front of him. I called.

Hero call? Donkey call? Do you think he had a spade? Queen? Jack? Any pair? What about my analysis?

The resolution, along with two other hands from last night, are on my blog...so no cheating until you post your thoughts!
 
jaymfc

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I'm a donk mind you but I don't see how he could bet the flop w/queen into 3 spades or the turn w/4 spades , also he may have checked his small
flush thinking it's probly not good on turn.or his larger flush trying to suck the englishman on tilt into betting.I can't believe the englishmen did not c-bet something on the flop to see where he was, and just gave up.
anyways I would have folded. I rather let them bluff me out when I have crap. now I guess I'll have to read your blog to know the rest of story.
 
TubaMark316

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Well, usually when there is some type of commotion going on and I AM in the hand, I usually just fold it unless I absolutley have it...

I've never been in a "call the floor" hand before...but I have seen a lot...and 99% of them are always checked because the one guy thought he had a monster and wanted to raise but said "I call x and raise you x..."...stuff like that.

I would imagine you folded, but I could be wrong as well...

Into a 4 spade board, and a jack hits the turn and he bets $40...
I could imagine he had J-5 or some stupid hand he didn't want to bet...

So I say you fold...

Richard Dawson: "Survey SAYS!!!!"

????
 
OzExorcist

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Bit confused, maybe I've missed something... but what did Englishman do after villain bet on the river? I'm assuming villain is in middle position somewhere and limped pre-flop before Englishman raised. Stack sizes would be interesting too.

Anywho, I'd be thinking a Q or a non-spade J would be very much in villain's range (maybe KQ / KJ, even QJ given the pre-flop action) and fit the betting pattern - either he flopped top pair but was worried about the flush (especially given Englishman's act on the flop) or a KJ type hand didn't hit anything and he was just checking because he had nothing.

I'd figure it's entirely possible villain has gone through the same thought process as you too - the way this has been played, there's a good chance neither you nor Englishman has a spade and either he'll push you both off the hand, or his queens / jacks are good. Applying the gap concept, he wouldn't be out of line thinking you'd even have a hard time calling this with a jack or queen in your hand.

So... file this under unnecessary hero call?
 
jaymfc

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cool blog , nice reading skills.I guess I'll never play good poker till I have money to burn , I'm way to cheap and I get pushed around to easy.everyone at a table see's that and joins in. good luck poker chick
 
lasvegaspokerchick

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Bit confused, maybe I've missed something... but what did Englishman do after villain bet on the river?

I'd figure it's entirely possible villain has gone through the same thought process as you too - the way this has been played, there's a good chance neither you nor Englishman has a spade and either he'll push you both off the hand, or his queens / jacks are good. Applying the gap concept, he wouldn't be out of line thinking you'd even have a hard time calling this with a jack or queen in your hand.

So... file this under unnecessary hero call?

Englishman mucked after Villain bet.

Anyway, I did call and Villain mucked face down. However, after further reflection I was wondering if it was something of an "unnecessary hero call" as Oz so aptly put it. In trying to hone my ability to read people, I sometimes neglect to take into account pot odds...meaning that calling $40 into an $80 pot might not be worth it no matter how good the read is. And probably not worth it at all on an iffy read. Sure, the "hero calls" make me feel good and they enforce and help me hone my skills at reading people, so there is some value there, but I question whether or not they are valuable from a cash perspective...all things considered.

Thanks again for the input guys...it will definitely provide more food for thought.
 
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Seneku

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When someone bets into a four flush board they usually have either something very good or nothing at all. You're not betting a low flush for value on a four flush board. So since both you and the englishman showed weakness he could very well have no pair at all and pushing you around. If he had something like J of spades or a lower spade, it would probably be better to maybe let the englishman or you try to bluff at it or take it down at showdown.

But I'd probably have to go with OzExorcist and put this under unnecessary hero call.

Edit: couldn't you post 4 minutes later? Now i look stupid ;)
 
lasvegaspokerchick

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But I'd probably have to go with OzExorcist and put this under unnecessary hero call.

Edit: couldn't you post 4 minutes later? Now i look stupid ;)

LOL....no, I appreciate all the feedback!
 
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vettloffah

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do you think it's strange you called a 7 x BB raise preflop with A5 suited? i'm not saying it definitely is, I'm just asking
 
OzExorcist

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do you think it's strange you called a 7 x BB raise preflop with A5 suited? i'm not saying it definitely is, I'm just asking

Taking the straddle into account it would've been... what, $11 to call in a $26 pot, with the villain still to act behind? (I'm assuming villain just limped in the first time around the table). Bit better than 2:1 on your money withouth considering the implied odds offered by Villain. The biggest concern for me would have been that we were playing the remainder of the hand OOP.

As for the call on the river, well read I guess. Unless my math is faulty (entirely possible :eek:), the pot odds say if your read is correct one in three times then the call is slightly +EV?
 
lasvegaspokerchick

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do you think it's strange you called a 7 x BB raise preflop with A5 suited? i'm not saying it definitely is, I'm just asking

Vett...many people would probably find my pre-flop range a little, hmmm...shall we say...different. I play many, many more flops live than I do on the internet. When you are playing online you have a lot less information to use to make your decisions. I play more hands pre-flop, especially in smaller games, because I feel confident that I can outplay the majority of players after the flop. I feel capable of making big bluffs, big calls, big bets, etc. so I can afford to open up my range.
 
Bombjack

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Interesting hand...

Pre-flop, I don't like the call if you're going to play it this passively. But if you're deep, pre-flop matters less. Straddled pots generally mean you're not so deep though.

As for the river call, maybe it's profitable if you know he's bluffing, but he could even be bluffing with a better hand than yours. More usually it's a Spade since it's not an especially great time to bluff versus two other players. And if he has a spade above an 8 or 9 he should definitely be value betting, especially if people are going to call him with a pair of fives!

Just wondering, if you didn't have the pair of fives, would you have called him with your Ace high? Or maybe come over the top of his bet?
 
lasvegaspokerchick

lasvegaspokerchick

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Interesting hand...

Pre-flop, I don't like the call if you're going to play it this passively. But if you're deep, pre-flop matters less. Straddled pots generally mean you're not so deep though.

As for the river call, maybe it's profitable if you know he's bluffing, but he could even be bluffing with a better hand than yours. More usually it's a Spade since it's not an especially great time to bluff versus two other players. And if he has a spade above an 8 or 9 he should definitely be value betting, especially if people are going to call him with a pair of fives!

Just wondering, if you didn't have the pair of fives, would you have called him with your Ace high? Or maybe come over the top of his bet?

I'm not too concerned with my choice to call pre-flop. I know that people tend to have very different opinions about ranges of cards to play pre-flop from certain positions and my play can certainly be on the loose end of things. But it is a style that seems to work well for me and be profitable.

As for the call on the river, clearly, that is a matter that is up for debate. I am happy that I made the correct read and was able to take down the pot, but I continue to question whether or not it was worth taking the risk for such a small pot. Certainly, as many people have pointed out, he could have been value betting/semi-bluffing/throwing money into the pot with a small spade.

I will say this, however, about the read. This guy was playing somewhat aggressively in his brief time at the table so far and he gave off that super agressive aura. I was very sure that he would have bet top pair on the flop into a raised pot even with three spades on the board. I was also almost as confident that he would have taken a stab at it on the turn with anything but a super low spade. That is why I made the call I did.
 
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