A perfect example of how I have lost almost all of my bankroll

TheNoob

TheNoob

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May 2, 2008
Total posts
540
For the last 4 nights, I have lost so many hands like this I am just numb. Maybe I'm overbetting?

But wait, don't push me to the vent forum yet .....

Help me out with my play here, will ya? Is my check on the turn a mistake?

Once again, I'm new to the game. I'm the donk, the fish, the sucker ..... whatever.

Any advice to help me improve will be appreciated.






Stacks:
* BTN with $39.55
* SB with $25.10
* BB with $21.10
* UTG with $19.30
* MP with $15.20
* CO with $27.05

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to BB:K♣ Q♥
* * Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
* * 1 players fold.
* * MP calls [$0.25]
* * 1 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$0.25]
* * 1 players fold.
* * Hero raises to $1
* * MP calls [$0.75]
* * BTN calls [$0.75]
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: $3.1
Flop:
* * 8♥ Q♣ J♠
* * Hero bets [$2]
* * 1 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$2]
* * Total folds this street: 1
* * Potsize: $7.1
Turn:
* * 2♥
* * Hero checks
* * BTN bets [$4]
* * Hero raises to $8
* * BTN calls [$4]
* * Potsize: $23.1
River:
* * 10♠
* * Hero checks
* * BTN bets [$15]
* * Hero calls [$10.10] [ all-in ] Uncalled bet of $4.90 returned to BTN
Results:
* * BTN shows :
* * 7♠ 9♠ BTN wins the pot ($41.15) with a straight, Queen high

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum
 
F

feitr

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lol well this is a bad beat nothing you can do about this.

I'd probably bump it up a little more preflop if you want to raise from the BB. Ideally you just want to pick up the dead money in this situation from the BB since it is hard to play OOP like this. The real problem is the turn. A min raise is not a good idea here and you want to make it at least $12. The hand actually played out nicely until this point...you got him to call a cbet on the flop with the best hand, you checked on the turn and were able to induce the bluff...but you then gave him very enticing odds with the min raise on the turn. Still, this is hardly even a mistake since he is completely missing his hand the vast majority of the time here. But in most cases (ie. when you aren't vs a donk calling down with a gutshot) you want to make sure you protect your TPGK hands so long as you believe you are ahead.

You are 91% to win this hand after the turn so it is just a huge suckout and there isn't much you can do. Could you post some hands where you make a mistake or were confused how to play the hand? It would be alot more help to you than a bad beat.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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Jan 2, 2007
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That check/min-raise is really rough. Why are we check/raising? If he checks behind and hits the straight you're gonna hate yourself. Plus with the min-raise, you're offering him 4.7:1 on his call. Add in the fact that you *cannot* get away from this pot on the river, so he can get 10$ from you when he hits the straight, so he's really getting 7.2:1 on his 9:1 draw. And while he's making a mistake, if you just lead for $6, you probably wouldn't be in this mess.

So if you know he's a fish, and that he'll bet when checked to, then SHOVE the turn when he bets. If you're not certain he'll bet, then just lead.
 
S

switch0723

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Poor turn and river play to be fair.

On the turn, it is best to probably lead out for about $5, although a check call is acceptable and a valid move, but the check min raise is ewww. A standard check raise would have been better than the check min raise.

After that, fold on the river with 4 to a straight on the board, and so many 2 pair combinations that call pre flop raises (q,j, q,t, j,t,) and also the possibility of sets out there, and a,q. All we are beating is a bluff so fold the river.

Most importantly, we should never be all in with just top pair 2nd kicker on the river
 
TheNoob

TheNoob

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Most importantly, we should never be all in with just top pair 2nd kicker on the river


I admit I'm really beat up and confused after the last 4 nights of horrible poker, but this comment hits home.

This is where all my money has gone ........ betting too much, I think, when there are just too many hands that can beat me.




Could you post some hands where you make a mistake or were confused how to play the hand? It would be alot more help to you than a bad beat.


I thought about that when I posted this one. Being inexperienced, I have so many hands that I would like to post that they would have to open a new forum:

Poker Forum > Poker Hand Analysis > Ring Game Hand Analysis > TheNoobs Highly Questionable Play

;)


I made up my mind that I need to start taking notes and keeping track of my most frustrating hands, so that I can come back here and brain pick as much as you guys will allow.

Thanks to all for the feedback. I appreciate it.
 
B

bw07507

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Everything said so far is valid, but I also wanted to point out that if you almost lost all of your BR in that one hand, you are playing way too high a limit. You should have atleast 20 Full Buy-ins for the limit you are playing, probably more if you're not a winning player yet. So if u want to play 25NL I would recommend having atleast 500 dollars in your BR.
 
TheNoob

TheNoob

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Total posts
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Everything said so far is valid, but I also wanted to point out that if you almost lost all of your BR in that one hand, you are playing way too high a limit. You should have atleast 20 Full Buy-ins for the limit you are playing, probably more if you're not a winning player yet. So if u want to play 25NL I would recommend having atleast 500 dollars in your BR.


No, not in that one hand.

This is a representative hand (generally) that I have had a unbelievable bad run* over the last 4 nights. I mean really bad.

This is how my bankroll has gone from about $380 to a meager $80.

* Don't get me wrong. I'm sure this bad run would not be near so bad if I was a better player. But I have had 4 nights of KK getting beaten by AA, pocket AA being beat by a set of 2's on the river, set's getting beat by a straight or flush on the river, etc.

Last night I literally turned the corner from blind rage to laughing like a loon after my set of 9's on the flop was beat by a 10 on the river to make a set of 10's for the villain.

I'm betting, so it's not like I'm letting free cards beat me. Verily, I suspect due to my losses that I'm betting too much.

Thanks.
 
F

feitr

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That is a problem if you are playing under rolled tho. I think you said in another thread that you were playing NL50 for alot of the time you have played poker? Well unless you have a BR of at least 1k, if you hit a bad run on NL50 your BR is potentially in big trouble. I'm not currently playing cash games, but i play SnGs normally with at least 35-70 buy ins because if i hit a bad run my BR is in no trouble at all and the odds of me tilting is alot less when i don't see a significant loss in my BR during a bad run.

Also i agree with what others have said about leading out on the turn in most cases, however, a standard check raise is the best option you can hope for here IF you know you are vs an aggressive player that is going to bet the turn if you feign "giving up" after the c-bet. But a check behind would be very bad news. However, as played, i'd have to give you credit for a good read and inducing the bluff. The problem is you didn't fully take advantage of it.

Finally, as much as it absolutely hurts, you have to be able to accept that the villain probably has a 9 to be making the river bet that he does. You beat nothing but a stone cold bluff, and that is very unlikely given you only have 10$ behind and are pretty committed to the hand (ie. villain has very little fold equity with a bet like that so it is unlikely he has a hand you can possibly beat).
 
D

dano13

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the check porb wasnt a good idea but he prob would haved called. maybe all in on the turn would that been a good idea?
 
S

switch0723

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^^^ Do you mean open pushing the turn? Because that definately isn't a good idea
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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So yeah, here's some general advice:

1) Reload you're stack to $25. Its easier to get away from these hands on the river when you have more money behind.

2) Ever heard the saying "Big hand, big pot. Small hand, Small pot". Well top pair is a small hand, so we do not want to make moves like check/raising which bloat the pot.

3) You need to understand reverse implied odds. Since you easily commit yourself to top pair, top kicker, you are offering players a lot of implied odds. Because if they make a hand better than top pair/top kicker they know that you will pay them off with just that. So when you check/raise the turn, villain knows that he can get that last 10$ of yours if he makes his straight, or he can fold if he doesn't.


So here's how I'd like to see the hand played out:
Preflop:
* * 1 players fold.
* * MP calls [$0.25]
* * 1 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$0.25]
* * 1 players fold.
* * Hero raises to $1.25 (3xBB+2xBB for the 2 limpers)
* * 1 players fold
* * BTN calls [$1.00]
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: $2.85 (even though our raise is bigger, the pot is smaller, and you're against only 1 player)
Flop:
* * 8♥ Q♣ J♠
* * Hero bets [$2]
* * 1 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$2]
* * Total folds this street: 1
* * Potsize: $6.85
Turn:
* * 2♥
* * Hero bets [$4.25]
* * BTN calls [$4.25] (now he just made a 2.6:1/9:1 mistake instead of a 7.2:1/9:1 mistake, which is what happened when you check raised him)
* * Potsize: $15.35 (You now have $17.50 behind if you had a full stack, and you can easily fold if the river comes nasty)
River:
* * 10♠ (hello nasty river card)
* * Hero checks
* * BTN bets [$15]
* * Hero folds
 
S

switch0723

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^^ A little extra to C9, in relation to his 'big hand big pot, small hand small pot' comment, the best option may even be to check/call the turn with the intention of keeping the pot small if villain checks behind.

I'm not really sure if check/calling or betting is better on the turn
 
TheNoob

TheNoob

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Big help guys.

I think an important point here is too much reliance on just a top pair good kicker.

I get too deep into pots like this, and I am regularly getting smoked betting too much with such a marginal hand.

Thanks.

(c9, your hand looks interesting and would have given me a chance to bail and get out with less damage).
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Joined
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One other good exercise to do on the river is think about what hands you beat. You're holding KQ, so you should be thinking, "What hands can I beat?"

AQ - Nope
QJ - Nope
QT - Nope
Q9 - Nope
Q8 - Nope
JT - Nope
J9 - Nope

Notice, every hand with a Queen in it other than Q7 has you beat in this spot. Also, commonly played jack hands like JT, J9, J8 beats you. There's really nothing we can beat other than a bluff. And when you have trouble naming hands that villain could have that you beat, you should really consider just folding the river :)

You get the picture. KT is really the one feasible hand that villain could have that you beat in this situation. And hoping for one hand on a 10$ call is a bit optimistic.

And yeah, the biggest adjustment to cash game play is the realization that top pair with a good kicker is not enough to commit your stack to. You can still bet it for value when there are worse hands/draws that will call you. But if it looks like your opponent wants to get his stack in the middle & you're only holding top pair, you should probably be looking for the exit.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Joined
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^^ A little extra to C9, in relation to his 'big hand big pot, small hand small pot' comment, the best option may even be to check/call the turn with the intention of keeping the pot small if villain checks behind.

I'm not really sure if check/calling or betting is better on the turn
Yeah, I'm kinda torn here. KT is the only draw on the board, but I still think there's value in a turn bet. Worse hands will still call us. I'd like check the river rather than the turn, since often some river cards will come that will take away our ability to value bet.
 
S

switch0723

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^^^ Seems the most sensible option
 
F

feitr

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Still the villain is obviously a complete donk, so if the hero picked up on that i think we can assume that TPGK is good in most cases before the river. That is why i don't think check raising is a terrible play here vs this particular villain. Normally i would say 100% we should be leading out on the turn but if the villain is as much a fish as they seem then check raising here is an ok play by my books. You can't possibly get a deader card than 2h, so im not really sure what we would put a villain on here that has us beat. AQ isn't going to limp on button then flat call reraise. Maybe QJ would float this but seems a flop reraise is more likely and it isn't that likely he flopped 2 pair anyways...i'd be more inclined to put villain on KT or something (until the river bet obviously). Since you don't have that much behind you, if you have reads telling you villain is a fishy player (ie. any other hand like this) i don't even think check raising all in on the turn would be a terrible play (would only be an $18 reraise). Vs an unknown/somewhat competent player with QK in this situation then sure i agree that you don't want to check raise the turn because if they shove you puke.
 
L

LUCIUS VARENUS

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Still the villain is obviously a complete donk

Are you sure he's a complete donk? Is it really "obvious"? Many times I have called with a gutshot straight draw knowing that my opponent will stack off with top pair or two pair without much consideration that he may be beaten when I hit it and move in on the river. Against this type of player, as long as he's deep enough (I would require 90bbs+) I would take this shot because I know I can get paid.

Since the OP is not trying to play small ball, he is a player who does fit into said category, and I would play the same as the Villain. Of course I would not always just fold if I did not hit and might bluff a later street. In my opinion the OP should've bet the pot on the flop and three quarters on the turn, both times folding to a decent raise. The OP should be happy to check the river. I do not advocate minraising at all, it was a blunder on the OP's part.
 
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LUCIUS VARENUS

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Also if you're going to checkraise, checkraise big. But generally don't checkraise.

Leading out guarantees you a bet or three. Checkraising gives you a guaranteed two bets or none.
 
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