8000 Hands in, down 12 buyins. Hand Review

[itsayoke]

So as the says, I'm new to poker and online poker, just about 8,000 hands in on 10NL online. I'm down 12 buyins and trying to understand where I am going wrong. I know variance will play some into this, but I am not here assuming I am a winning player w/o variance. I realize everyone thinks they are better than they really are, but I often find myself losing to players who I know are worse. Lots of players with VPIP >40%, PFR <15% who cap their ranges and mostly don't bluff. Its starting to get to me mentally, I am wondering what to do or how to go about reviewing my hands and adjusting to this play. Here is an example of a hand that I feel I often lose to. This may be me just playing poorly, but I'd like some feedback. So many hands like this. Being down 12 buysin I am wondering what to do, I can afford it, I just sincenrly want to improve for the sake of improving

Thanks



Preflop ^ max (Villan PFRs, Hero Calls, going heads up)

*** FLOP *** [Jh 8s As]
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $0.20
Hero: calls $0.20
*** TURN *** [Jh 8s As] 2♣
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $1
Hero: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [Jh 8s As 2c] Q♥
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $3
Hero: calls $3
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villan: shows [Jc Js] (three of a kind, Jacks)
Hero shows [two pair Aces,Queens]
Villan collected $8.64 from pot

 

[Batarang96]

You need to tell us what stakes you are playing and how big your stacks are.

 

[itsayoke]

You need to tell us what stakes you are playing and how big your stacks are.

It’s 10NL that I did mention, we were both ~120bb deep

 

[Batarang96]

Sorry that I missed the stakes. There are a few other things that you also need to include...

Before telling the action, tell what hole cards you had; not only the ranks but also the suits. Also, include the size of the pot, on the flop, turn, and river.

I don't understand what you mean by "Preflop ^ max"; is there a bet-size limit?

You may consider 3-betting, PF; if he 4-bets, then you should fold.

I don't really care for the check on the River; most of the time, you're ahead, here. I'd bet $2; probably, nothing but T-9 will reraise you.

You made the right call, though. You only need to be ahead 35% of the time to break even.
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[puzzlefish]

So as the says, I'm new to poker and online poker, just about 8,000 hands in on 10NL online. I'm down 12 buyins and trying to understand where I am going wrong. I know variance will play some into this, but I am not here assuming I am a winning player w/o variance. I realize everyone thinks they are better than they really are, but I often find myself losing to players who I know are worse. Lots of players with VPIP >40%, PFR <15% who cap their ranges and mostly don't bluff. Its starting to get to me mentally, I am wondering what to do or how to go about reviewing my hands and adjusting to this play. Here is an example of a hand that I feel I often lose to. This may be me just playing poorly, but I'd like some feedback. So many hands like this. Being down 12 buysin I am wondering what to do, I can afford it, I just sincenrly want to improve for the sake of improving

Thanks



Preflop ^ max (Villan PFRs, Hero Calls, going heads up)

*** FLOP *** [Jh 8s As]
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $0.20
Hero: calls $0.20
*** TURN *** [Jh 8s As] 2[emoji814]
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $1
Hero: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [Jh 8s As 2c] Q[emoji813]
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $3
Hero: calls $3
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villan: shows [Jc Js] (three of a kind, Jacks)
Hero shows [two pair Aces,Queens]
Villan collected $8.64 from pot

I mostly play 5NL but have played 10NL before. I have no idea if I am a winning player in cash, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

I think this is a standard cooler type hand. If you played it more aggressively, you would have lost more. This is just one of those runouts that you just hope to lose the least.

One thing to consider is sudden changes in betting action. You won't fold the flop. Turn is suddenly about a pot size bet. Think what you might be up against that plays this way and fires another pot sized bet on the river. Like you said... "Lots of players with VPIP >40%, PFR <15% who cap their ranges and mostly don't bluff."

Whatever they have on the river, chances are that your two pair is too weak in this situation against the range that is being represented by your villain.

 

[fundiver199]

As others have said, you are not reporting the hand properly, since you are leaving out important details like your own position, the Villains position, their preflop sizing and the size of the pot on each street. You called preflop and acted first after the flop, so presumably you were in the blinds, but we dont know, if Villain opened UTG on a full ring table or on BTN, which is important for putting them on a range.

But regardless of this lacking information, it is pretty clear, that the hand is just a cooler. You flopped a very strong hand and improved further on the river, but unfortunately you ran into an even stronger one. The hand would be much more interesting, if the river card was a blank like 3h rather than Qh. Thats the time, where maybe you can begin to consider folding AQ, when the opponent apparently bet something like full pot after also betting full pot on the turn, because would they really do that for value with AT or worse? Probably not so your hand would be a bluff catcher, and then folding is at least an option.

But when its Qh, not you beat all the other two pair, and you beat AK. So there are at least some worse hands, your opponent might play like this for value. And we can never put ourselfes in a position on the poker table, where we fall victim to accidental value-bluffs. That is, when our opponent think, they have the best hand and bet it for value, but they actually get us to fold a better hand. So this was just one of those annoying spots, where we improve while behind and have to pay them off.

 

[1KrazyMofo]

I would say that hand is just a cooler, however, as a beginner you should play at 2NL and then work your way up..

 

[John A]

You lost the least amount you could versus a cooler. The fact you're posting this hand in conjunction with your comments about whether you're a winning player is the most concerning, honestly. Everyone is going to lose money on a hand like this... most losing players are losing because:

1) They are playing the wrong hands pre-flop in the wrong spots... and when this happens mistakes get compounded post flop.
2) They don't understand their opponent's hand ranges well enough to play and bet their hands appropriately.
3) They aren't bluffing enough or bluffing in the wrong spots.
4) Aren't picking up enough small pots, letting too many of those go.

Post hands where you weren't sure what to do on the turn+, and provide full info about your hand. Mark your biggest losing hands (that aren't coolers), and post them for review. To be good at poker, you have to put work in, just like anything in life.

 

[fundiver199]

Very much agree with John A. Also 8k hands is really nothing, and its completely normal to experience downswings of 12 BIs or more. This is why, most people these days recommend a bankroll of at least 30-50 BIs for cash games. So "putting work in" also mean playing way more than just 8k hands. Even over 100k hands marginal winning players will sometimes be down due to variance.

Poker Variance Calculator

Poker Variance Calculator for cash games. Displays variance, possible downswings, upswings and probabilities depending on your win rate.

www.primedope.com

Its completely normal, that beginners underestimate the magnitude of variance and focus on coolers rather than hands, that actually matter. So dont let our somewhat harsh feedback deter you. I think, you are on the right track, but you still have a long way to go, thats all. Also as a final comment you mention VPIP, so I assume, you use a tracker and a HUD? In that case learn how to export hand histories from the tracker and use the hand converter for easy and accurate sharing. Good luck

 

[eetenor]

So as the says, I'm new to poker and online poker, just about 8,000 hands in on 10NL online. I'm down 12 buyins and trying to understand where I am going wrong. I know variance will play some into this, but I am not here assuming I am a winning player w/o variance. I realize everyone thinks they are better than they really are, but I often find myself losing to players who I know are worse. Lots of players with VPIP >40%, PFR <15% who cap their ranges and mostly don't bluff. Its starting to get to me mentally, I am wondering what to do or how to go about reviewing my hands and adjusting to this play. Here is an example of a hand that I feel I often lose to. This may be me just playing poorly, but I'd like some feedback. So many hands like this. Being down 12 buysin I am wondering what to do, I can afford it, I just sincenrly want to improve for the sake of improving

Thanks



Preflop ^ max (Villan PFRs, Hero Calls, going heads up)

*** FLOP *** [Jh 8s As]
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $0.20
Hero: calls $0.20
*** TURN *** [Jh 8s As] 2♣
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $1
Hero: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [Jh 8s As 2c] Q♥
Hero: checks
Villan: bets $3
Hero: calls $3
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villan: shows [Jc Js] (three of a kind, Jacks)
Hero shows [two pair Aces,Queens]
Villan collected $8.64 from pot

Thank you for posting.
The first steps to being better at anything is unfortunately in the details-
So table positions are soooo important. UTG vs BB is nothing like CO vs SB etc- Positions effect how our V play their range their bet sizing all of it.
By training our thinking on positional awareness first we then can move on to more complex issues.

The positions are missing from your post- there are times we just call with AQ like UTG vs BB 100bb deep so your call might be correct-CO vs BB we 3-bet AQ
The key to winning poker is strong fundamentals our 30 day course is very valuable as a baseline if you have not already used it as a learning tool.

As to the hand itself it is a cooler you lost less than I would have lol

Hope this helps

 

[mbrenneman0]

if you ask me, you actually should have lost more on this hand.
my first thought is why not 3bet with AQo?

this tells me that your 3betting range is extremely face up... when you 3bet, your opponents are pretty much just always going to know your hand is QQ KK AA or AK

my recommendation to get started is find a decent preflop range chart, the ones they recommend as part of the Core program at Redchip are pretty decent. memorize those preflop range charts to the best of your ability, and follow them religiously until you understand when and why to deviate from them

 

[blueskies]

That one hand is not gonna reveal anything. What are your stats over the 8000 hands?

In that one hand you showed, flatting from the blinds with AQos is ok DEPENDING on villain tendencies. If the mofo is raising liberally, then yes 3bet him. Otherwise, playing conservative is fine. Also, you should have a plan in mind, if you threebet and you get fourbet, can you toss the AQ away? Or are you willing to get it all in preflop with it? I tell ya, having AQos OOP in an inflated pot is not fun.

The mistake is to play overly passive preflop and then to overplay top pair post flop. You played ok there. When OOP it is hard to fully realize your equity, so my own strategy is to be conservative (most of the time), but again it depends on villain, board texture, recent action, etc.

Remember, there's no such thing as you MUST do something all the time. Poker is fluid, you gotta take it hand by hand.