$600 NLHE 6-max: Live 2/5 - Short handed bluff attempt. Thoughts?

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c0rnBr34d

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New to the table very little reads. We are currently 4 handed as one player is away from the table and a new larger game just opened up taking may players from the table. The other tables are full so players agree to play short handed while waiting for seats at the full games. In the hand full of orbits Hero has seen the least amount of flops and hasn't raised at all yet. V is probably the most active at the table. Second bluff I'm posting here but it's not because I have many bluffs. This was my only real bluff (other than applying pressure with a stronger draw) in my 4.5 hour session. Posting these because bluffs are one of the weaker parts of my game. OTTH:

Hero is effective stack with $600 opens OTB with QsJc to $20, SB fold, V calls from BB.

Flop (~$40): Th8d4c
V x, Hero $20, V $85. Hero thinks it over and comes to the conclusion that V wants a fold here and rarely has 2 pair or a set with this sizing. Putting V on mostly Tx and straight draws like J9 or 97. Perhaps even some spaz like 89s. Since we have a gut shot to the nuts on a rainbow board and could hit an overcard to win we decide to 3 bet to $230, committing our stack if V jams. We also block some straight draws which seems like a good bonus if he calls down or shoves on the straight draw. Too ambitious? Thoughts on pre, cbet, and 3 bet?
 
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fundiver199

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Pretty standard open and C-bet, but its a bit thin to continue, once he check-raise you. You do have some equity for sure, but he is risking 85 to pick up 60, so you are allowed to fold quite a bit.
 
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quant1986

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I think villain could play 44 and two pairs with this sizing. But if villain check raise too much, I see you can counter by 3bet with strong holdings and bluffs but not committing to play for stack if villain shoves over the top.

Not a spot I would take when I open from BTN, but I never play in 2/5 live
 
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It looks like a good aggressive line I like it. How did the hand developed?
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Pretty standard open and C-bet, but its a bit thin to continue, once he check-raise you. You do have some equity for sure, but he is risking 85 to pick up 60, so you are allowed to fold quite a bit.
Agreed, I was either folding or raising and my reads could be off given limited time at the table but what would be your continuing range if you were V, facing a 3 bet OOP? I was basing this line off of V having Tx and straight draws. The problem with this line is that I wouldn't take it with sets or top two but maybe V doesn't know that. I'm repping overpairs mostly but I usually have no bluffs here.
I think villain could play 44 and two pairs with this sizing. But if villain check raise too much, I see you can counter by 3bet with strong holdings and bluffs but not committing to play for stack if villain shoves over the top.

Not a spot I would take when I open from BTN, but I never play in 2/5 live
He could, but on this dry board why would he risk us folding flop when we have so many AJ+ hands and KQ and underpairs that just have to fold? There's no flush draw to worry about and Hero's first raise is unlikely to be J9 or 97. I expected less aggressive sizing from his stronger hands or for him to wait for the turn if he was that strong.
It looks like a good aggressive line I like it. How did the hand developed?
Thanks, will share results tomorrow. Hope to get a few more responses first.
 
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quant1986

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He could, but on this dry board why would he risk us folding flop when we have so many AJ+ hands and KQ and underpairs that just have to fold? There's no flush draw to worry about and Hero's first raise is unlikely to be J9 or 97. I expected less aggressive sizing from his stronger hands or for him to wait for the turn if he was that strong.

Villain could remain balanced for that check raise sizing as long as there are not many check raising combos vs value combos. Of course if you see villain is very unbalanced e.g. slow play 44,T8s but raising with bluff only then you can exploit accordingly
 
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I think everything is standard up to the 3bet. The 3bet is definitely NOT standard, but I think it's fine and you have some valid reasons...I could see an aggressive player trying to put 2 overs in a difficult spot here with air or weak semi-bluffs. A flush draw with overs might jam on you(fortunately rainbow), but the straight draws will all fold and you may push a lot of 10s out of the pot here. If I'm villain and have JT, yeah that's just gross I would hate that spot so much. Villain's continuing range on that play is extremely narrow and therefore you're likely to get that play through.

I would be interested to hear what your plan is if he jams and separately your plan if he calls. Committing that much on a pressure play/semi-bluff, you probably want to have a plan. My guess is T8 would jam, sets could either call or jam(I would fastplay and jam assuming you have an overpair), straight draws should all fold, and frankly I have no idea what 10x should do...he also folds all his air bluffs here unless he's a lunatic.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Villain could remain balanced for that check raise sizing as long as there are not many check raising combos vs value combos. Of course if you see villain is very unbalanced e.g. slow play 44,T8s but raising with bluff only then you can exploit accordingly
We have limited reads but I wouldn't expect V to slow play against a guy who has been the least active at the table. Also thus far he had been using more aggression than slow play (no slow play at all actually). The problem with this line is I shouldn't be getting out of line this early based on limited reads but I really felt like he had Tx or worse one pair hands, straight draws, and some overcard or under pair bluff.

I think everything is standard up to the 3bet. The 3bet is definitely NOT standard, but I think it's fine and you have some valid reasons...I could see an aggressive player trying to put 2 overs in a difficult spot here with air or weak semi-bluffs. A flush draw with overs might jam on you(fortunately rainbow), but the straight draws will all fold and you may push a lot of 10s out of the pot here. If I'm villain and have JT, yeah that's just gross I would hate that spot so much. Villain's continuing range on that play is extremely narrow and therefore you're likely to get that play through.

I would be interested to hear what your plan is if he jams and separately your plan if he calls. Committing that much on a pressure play/semi-bluff, you probably want to have a plan. My guess is T8 would jam, sets could either call or jam(I would fastplay and jam assuming you have an overpair), straight draws should all fold, and frankly I have no idea what 10x should do...he also folds all his air bluffs here unless he's a lunatic.
Yeah I may have focused too much on how narrow Vs continuing range should be which gave me the confidence to put the bet in. Combined with the gut read I had that he was weak. Normally I think it's better to call and keep his bluffs in but when our hand is this vulnerable it's easier to take the fold or bluff route. I need to be more confident in not making a mistake on turns and rivers if I flat but I really felt like he was going to barrel it off big, hit or miss. And if we don't improve on the turn how can we continue with Q high and a gutter? It makes it worse to know that some portion of his range is air and or draws that we beat. So I opted for the bluff. My plan was make a read on his reaction to the 3 bet. Default was to rip any non Q, J, 7 on the turn if he flats. I could go either way on call or fold if he jams, leaning fold unless we think we pick anything up.
 
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gustav197poker

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If we are going to play aggressively I love this line with AK or KQ. QJ is a super aggressive line for this texture. The question is, what hands propose 3-bet on a dry board and on the other hand the call, how likely it can occur. For this second point it is very important the information that we could collect from the villains along the hands played, as well as our image on the table (we have seen few flops, so we probably bet mostly on value.)
Then our range contains high and medium pairs, therefore we also include sets in this flop. The issue is that a tight player will bet mostly on 1bet value and defend his hand on a call / 2bet line for a rainbow dry board.
Then our range is mostly located in a structure of speculative hands and secondly, hands by value.
(That is why I prefer to have the greatest bluffs strength with AK and KQ).
Your hand blocks J-9, which is an indication that the villain probably also represents a range of value.
I understand the line you took, but personally I prefer this hand with better preflop combinations.
Regards.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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If we are going to play aggressively I love this line with AK or KQ. QJ is a super aggressive line for this texture. The question is, what hands propose 3-bet on a dry board and on the other hand the call, how likely it can occur. For this second point it is very important the information that we could collect from the villains along the hands played, as well as our image on the table (we have seen few flops, so we probably bet mostly on value.)
Then our range contains high and medium pairs, therefore we also include sets in this flop. The issue is that a tight player will bet mostly on 1bet value and defend his hand on a call / 2bet line for a rainbow dry board.
Then our range is mostly located in a structure of speculative hands and secondly, hands by value.
(That is why I prefer to have the greatest bluffs strength with AK and KQ).
Your hand blocks J-9, which is an indication that the villain probably also represents a range of value.
I understand the line you took, but personally I prefer this hand with better preflop combinations.
Regards.
Run some equity calculations. QJo has better equity and blockers thank AK vs the most problematic part of Vs range, which we think is Tx (dramatically so vs AT for example) and we are still ahead of J9 and 97. I would much rather have QJ than AK here when executing this bluff because the gut shot to the nuts gives us a significant equity boost. The real gamble here is making the read on limited hands that V is not x/r sets and two pair on this flop.
 
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gustav197poker

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In Tx, I agree, blockers also allow the variation to expand. An interesting place when we want more equity. But in preflop strength value, maybe I can keep Tx up to the turn and wait to evaluate the increase.
 
teh_colonel_saigon

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Run some equity calculations. QJo has better equity and blockers thank AK vs the most problematic part of Vs range, which we think is Tx (dramatically so vs AT for example) and we are still ahead of J9 and 97. I would much rather have QJ than AK here when executing this bluff because the gut shot to the nuts gives us a significant equity boost. The real gamble here is making the read on limited hands that V is not x/r sets and two pair on this flop.


I don't think it's too bad of a play. So few of his value hands would play so aggressively- if he was that straight forward you probably would have known by now. You have good equity versus his entire range even if there are two bluffs in there.

But you are right, when he calls, you are in a tough spot on the turn to continue your bluff.
 
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gustav197poker

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On the turn you could improve with any of your blockers and taking into account that we must reduce the possibility that the villain has a J in his range.
If we assign the villain Tx it seems that we are in a promising scenario since the T has a minor impact.
According to how you played when he called 3-bet I think we should control on the turn and make the decision on the river.
Maybe a big bet in the end ends up unbalancing and giving up the entire low range of bluff catcher of V.
Although it seems to be a tough place, you can take advantage of your blockers to reactivate your strength on the river. (I think your 3-bet places you in a favorable area for the river). The most likely move would say that it is the push for this situation.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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On the turn you could improve with any of your blockers and taking into account that we must reduce the possibility that the villain has a J in his range.
If we assign the villain Tx it seems that we are in a promising scenario since the T has a minor impact.
According to how you played when he called 3-bet I think we should control on the turn and make the decision on the river.
Maybe a big bet in the end ends up unbalancing and giving up the entire low range of bluff catcher of V.
Although it seems to be a tough place, you can take advantage of your blockers to reactivate your strength on the river. (I think your 3-bet places you in a favorable area for the river). The most likely move would say that it is the push for this situation.
I think if we check back brick turn cards we are admitting to the flop bluff and taking a free card hoping to improve. Unless V is more fishy than we think he will be able to correctly call river bluffs with Tx and bet himself in some cases so we may not even have the opportunity to bluff river if V realizes we are weak after checking back turn and jams his Tx or missed straight into us on the river. We can never call with Q high. For these reasons I was only planning to give up on Q, J, 7 turn cards. Instead put him in the tough spot where he want's to fold his Tx and his straight draws. We allow him to make huge mistakes in both cases by either folding Tx or calling it all off with a partially blocked straight draw. Even if V plays perfectly and calls with his 1 pair we have a chance to still win the hand.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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It looks like a good aggressive line I like it. How did the hand developed?
Thanks all for feedback, good discussion. As promised here are results:

V tanks for well over a minute. Perhaps 2 mins and folds, clearly frustrated. So we don't have to shove the turn. I believe this helped set up a hand later with the same V where we bet $30 pre with KK and V 3 bet us and we 4 bet to $230, V then 5 bet jams $550ish and we call and ask if he has AA. He shakes his head no and the board runs out T high with a pair of 7s. We show, he mucks.

I think it was too early in the session to make the read we made but other than that I think I do like our line this hand. Thanks all for perspective.
 
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gustav197poker

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But the advantage of controlling on the turn is to allow our hand to improve for free and in the worst case scenario, lose less money than if we stack on the turn. Another option from this perspective is to convert our broad range into a strong hand.
The river bluff I propose is really a kind of weak hand by value, which protects us from a narrow range of the villain. Probably at that point our structure is the closest to a set. For which at that point several low pairs should be canceled. It all depends on what happens on the turn.

I just read the results NH GG
 
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