6-max limit 5/10: A5s

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Skoldpadda is reviewing a couple of my hands and I got a question as to what I was doing on the flop in this hand. I think I played it fine.

Villain is 83/19/1.5 or so over a sample of about 100 hands.

pokerstars Game #8915690206: Hold'em Limit ($5/$10) - 2007/03/15 - 15:33:30 (ET)
Table 'Hermippe' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: UTG ($67 in chips)
Seat 2: FPau ($345.50 in chips)
Seat 3: CO ($336 in chips)
Seat 4: Villain ($233.50 in chips)
Seat 5: SB ($570 in chips)
Seat 6: BB ($160 in chips)
SB: posts small blind $2
B: posts big blind $5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FPau [5d Ad]
UTG: folds
FPau: raises $5 to $10
CO: folds
Villain: calls $10
SB: calls $8
BB: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [6h 3d 8c]
SB: checks
BB: checks
FPau: bets $5
Villain: raises $5 to $10
SB: folds
BB: folds
FPau: calls $5 <------------- I don't like this. I think I'd give it up here.

(Yellow being Skoldpadda's remark)

The preflop raise, for starters, is right on the margin of what I open with. I would fold A6o, for instance.

Now let's look at the flop: There are 8 small bets in when I make my first bet. Then Villain - our local maniac - raises, making it 11 small bets when the action is back on me. A weak ace is not much to smile about in this situation, but it's also not the only thing I have and it's not the only thing to consider, I feel.

When the pots get big in limit hold 'em, it's time to look for every out you can. Here, I have a backdoor flush draw, some weak overcard outs and a heavily unlikely backdoor straight draw. This probably doesn't add up to the pot odds I need, to make the call outright, though, but it should at least make it somewhat close. I only need four outs to make the call and I'm ahead some percentage of the time still.

The other thing to consider, besides the pot odds, is that I shouldn't show a willingness to fold the flop for just one more. If there's one thing I don't want it's people starting to raise me left and right on the flop because they know that I will make laydowns. Not all meta-game advantages are worth much money, but this one is pretty big to me.

It's important to realize that I'm not just peeling the flop here, I'm more or less committing myself to showdown. It's not standard, but against some players it is and occasionally also against good players since they will otherwise run me over if I make a habit of folding too much. It's a difficult balanace and one that I'm pretty sure I'm not anywhere near mastering yet.

/FP
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Villain is 83/19/1.5 or so over a sample of about 100 hands.
I've got a suggestion FP - you say you're on a major downswing at the moment, try playing for a day without Pokertracker on. You're in a $60 pot at the turn with Ace high - your opponent could be trying to push you off the pot, but even if he is, he could have A J for instance and you're still behind. It's probably going to cost you another $20 to see if your Ace high is good, and you'll probably feel you'll have to call due to the pot odds. Without PT, you may have played it different.

And I wouldn't worry about opponents thinking you can be pushed off a hand too easily - you want them raising you when you do eventually hit a good hand.
 
A

alan1983

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i dunno much about limit but i think id wanna look at the turn too. Could bring up a lot of outs.

But when you say youre committing yourself to showdown, you mean youre basically calling this down even if you dont even hit a 5?

Dyou think the number of times your ace high is good justifies that? Or are you calling down for the sake of image?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Seeing the turn is a necessity.

Rob: It's possible (likely, even) that I'd have played it differently without PokerTracker, but I'm not so certain I should have. I call the flop (and likely the turn and even a river bet) because I think it's +EV, thanks to my PokerTracker information on this guy. Taking away that information means I make the less optimal decision of folding.

Alan: Calling down isn't for image, that's for value (the times I decide to do it). But calling the flop is in large part for image, like I said.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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FP,

(*insert usual disclaimer about Chris knowing feck all about limit here*)

You concentrate on the flop call of maniac's raise, but I think the flop lead is by far the most debatable part of the hand. Why lead into 4 players with Ace high? You're not going to take the pot down because it's limit and nobody folds in limit. ;)

Okay, maybe you're trying to isolate the maniac, but you're OOP with Ace high and a couple of longshot runner runner draws - it's really not a favourable situation. The best way to beat a maniac is not by being a maniac yourself. Maybe if we had some sort of immediate draw here (even a gutshot) I'd like your line a bit more, but as it is, I really don't.


Rob,

I don't really think playing with less information is a good idea.
 
Bombjack

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I kind of agree with Dorkus. I also don't know much about Limit. But

a) I think A5s is too weak to play from middle position. Sootedness is less important in Limit I think, because you don't get the same implied odds as in NL. The wheel draw isn't worth much. So I'd fold it pre-flop.

b) I also don't much like firing into 3 people here. If anyone has a tiny bit of this flop they'll call, since the pot is quite big already. Obviously your outs are very few and you could be drawing dead to runner-runner. I don't know, does betting this flop get everyone to fold at least 1 time in 9? If so, go ahead, but you have to fold if you're called or raised.

I'd forget the metagame stuff and just play your cards. You're out of position and have pretty much no chance of winning this hand. If he starts raising you a lot on the flop, you'll get more value when you do actually have a hand.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I think the flop lead is by far the most debatable part of the hand.
Good point. Checking is often a better idea, I'm not sure why I chose to bet here. Might have been momentum, but if I was thinking at all (you never know) a good reason to bet would be to buy the button and opt for a free card on the turn. One thing that is for certain is that I'm never getting a better hand to fold on the flop.

Preflop: Opening with A5s in the hijack is marginal, like I said. Against really bad players (the two people in the blinds are about as bad as they come) it's fairly standard. With Jen Harman and Howard Lederer yet to act behind me, I'd muck it, but here it's gotta be +EV to play. It is on the very rim of what's playable, though.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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I'd forget the metagame stuff...

Preflop: Opening with A5s in the hijack is marginal, like I said. Against really bad players (the two people in the blinds are about as bad as they come)...

Generally speaking, the worse our opponents, the less we should be concerned with metagame stuff. I think worrying about setting up future plays and establishing a table image is somewhat counter-intuitive when you have a couple of goldmines at the table.
 
skoldpadda

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Generally speaking, the worse our opponents, the less we should be concerned with metagame stuff. I think worrying about setting up future plays and establishing a table image is somewhat counter-intuitive when you have a couple of goldmines at the table.


I think this is the key take home message. Having reviewed the hand history, I can tell this guy and 1 other are pretty donkalicious (2nd attempt to coin a new term since no one is jumping on my doncomments bandwagon).

Wait for a better spot. When people are calling down with 32 on a board with 4 broadway cards (another hand), you know there are better opportunities.

With the opponents being so bad, we know we'll get paid off but just need to be more patient.

Also as bombjack pointed out, suited ace just adds about 2-3% to the value of the ace. Probably a bit more value in NLHE too I'd think, intuitively.
 
joosebuck

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chris coined donkmentary a while back iirc. not sure what all we made up... i know i coined donkumentary for the video i made (and i know i know still havent sent to you yet)
 
HoldemChamp

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I have to agree with what seems to be the consensus. You are trying to get to fancy here with what appears to be at least one or more not terribly good 5/10 players. 4 people seeing a raised flop is an indication right there. It is the good players that you should mix your game up with. In this situation stick with solid play and don't try to get fancy.

Wait for a good hand and either call and fold or just plain fold A5 suited in middle position.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I think many (all?) of you are misunderstanding me. The preflop raise is for value, and only for value. Unless I have the two toughest players in the world in the blinds, I raise A5s every time in the hijack. It's marginal, but it's where my cut-off point goes, and it's on the right side of it. The reason I wouldn't play it if I had really good players behind me has nothing to do with meta-game, but simply because I'm not good enough to show a profit with that hand if that was the case. Here, it isn't. Image and meta-game has nothing to do with it.

What I mentioned about image is calling the flop checkraise and that folding the flop is really, really bad for my image. When the pot is already 11 bets big, folding for one more is unthinkable. I don't need much equity to make that call to begin with, and even if that call is marginal (and on the bad side), that's where my position and my image comes in play.

Had my hand been in much worse shape, and the pot had been smaller, I could have folded to the flop raise despite it being bad for my image. Here, as I said, seeing the turn is a necessity.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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You're bringing 'image' into the discussion when it doesn't really have a place. As you said, you have to call the flop raise here as played because the pot is so big and hence you're getting 50 zillion to one on a call. You're not calling because folding 'would be bad for your image', because, again, as you appear to be at a table with players who barely know what cards they've been dealt, your image is irrelevant. In making this decision, at this table, I wouldn't give my 'image' too much thought.

As I said in another thread recently, doing the right thing for the wrong reasons isn't a good habit to get into.

I also don't get why people are questioning the pf raise, btw.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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You're bringing 'image' into the discussion when it doesn't really have a place. As you said, you have to call the flop raise here as played because the pot is so big and hence you're getting 50 zillion to one on a call. You're not calling because folding 'would be bad for your image', because, again, as you appear to be at a table with players who barely know what cards they've been dealt, your image is irrelevant. In making this decision, at this table, I wouldn't give my 'image' too much thought.

As I said in another thread recently, doing the right thing for the wrong reasons isn't a good habit to get into.

I also don't get why people are questioning the pf raise, btw.
Yeah, I kinda regret bringing that up. In the OP, I meant it as an added benefit of calling, not as the defining reason for why I did it. The second post saying that calling the flop is in large part for image was intended as a general comment on making loose flop peels to c-bets getting checkraised.

After that, I kinda got stuck in a bad spiral of having to defend my "image" comments while simultaneously trying to avoid that becoming the point of the thread; it isn't.

Sorry about that.

/FP
 
Bombjack

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The way I see it, you've put in 3 small bets, you have little to no chance of winning the hand, and it's going to cost you another 5 to go to showdown. Just fold the flop. Calling is pure spew, because you'll think you're committed to calling the turn and river as well. Even betting this flop is a bit spewey. OK it's possible he's raising on a draw with T9 or 79, but more likely he has a pair.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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The way I see it, you've put in 3 small bets, you have little to no chance of winning the hand, and it's going to cost you another 5 to go to showdown. Just fold the flop. Calling is pure spew, because you'll think you're committed to calling the turn and river as well. Even betting this flop is a bit spewey. OK it's possible he's raising on a draw with T9 or 79, but more likely he has a pair.
You really need to take the pot size into account when you advice me to fold, though. It's not enough that he has a pair for me to be correct to fold, he needs to have specifically a pair with an ace kicker, otherwise my three ace-outs are good and I can't fold in an 11 bet pot.

Also, and I don't mean to sound defensive but this is an interesting discussion, I really meant it when I said he's a maniac. An AF of 1.5 when he sees virtually every flop is huge. My hand is best here a lot more often than I think you give it credit for.

11 bet pot, maniac opponent, in position, closing the action with two backdoor draws and an overcard, when I c-bet and got checkraised on a rag flop = call.

I feel like I'm arguing against all of CC. :p While I can see arguments for or against playing other parts of this hand differently, this particular point in the hand is not close, in my opinion.
 
joosebuck

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i think something to take away from this post is that there are more underlying things to look at than the obvious part of a hand (that you have ace high).

when you raise, i think the hand then has way less to do with your cards than if you were to call.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Nitty note - you didn't get checkraised. :p

Let's take the maniac out of the maniac for a minute. If villain is your average 5/10 player, how does your play in the hand change, if at all?

(fwiw I agree the flop call as played is fine, incidentally)
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Nitty note - you didn't get checkraised. :p

Let's take the maniac out of the maniac for a minute. If villain is your average 5/10 player, how does your play in the hand change, if at all?

(fwiw I agree the flop call as played is fine, incidentally)
That's not that nitty; though. I misread the hand history. Being out of position changes things somewhat as I can no longer hope for a free card on the turn and I can no longer hope that my opponent is taking a shot after everyone else is folding. Thanks for pointing it out.

If this guy was typical, I'd still make the call on the flop but fold the turn if he bets (and I don't turn an 8+ out draw or an ace) because the most typical hands that people cold call preflop with are A-x hands and small/medium PPs. Cold calling is very rarely the best option in 6-max limit hold 'em, so don't get the idea that I'm suggesting this is what a good player will do; only what a "typical" one will.

Against typical players I will sometimes - more or less rarely depending on their bluffing frequencies - call down. Usually that will be after having turned a strong draw and the river pairing the board.
 
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