6-Max $25, AA in SB, big action after flop

SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

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About a dozen hands into a table last night just after midnight. I have no history on any of them, and may have been steaming a bit as I just left a losing session at a live ring game. (I only lost $8, but had an ATM on either side of me, and I was up until I was bluffed off a big pot for the loss) Beer was involved as well, but Guinness is my friend so I forgive it.

pokerstars Game #15625612176: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/02/29 - 00:03:00 (ET)
Table 'Eugenia IV' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: SaltGrass59 ($18.25 in chips)
Seat 2: baltorx ($20.45 in chips)
Seat 3: lws06912 ($15 in chips)
Seat 4: spidermaan ($40.80 in chips)
Seat 5: SvgePenguin ($25.55 in chips) (I was up $3, winning about three pots without showing, but lost most of it when someone challenged my continuation bet a few hands before this one)
Seat 6: Trackudown ($23.70 in chips)
SvgePenguin: posts small blind $0.10
Trackudown: posts big blind $0.25
baltorx: posts big blind $0.25
lws06912: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SvgePenguin [Ac Ah]
SaltGrass59: folds
baltorx: checks
lws06912: raises $0.50 to $0.75
spidermaan: calls $0.75
SvgePenguin: raises $1.25 to $2
Trackudown: folds
baltorx: folds
lws06912: calls $1.25
spidermaan: calls $1.25
*** FLOP *** [4s 9d Ks]
SvgePenguin: bets $3
lws06912: raises $10 to $13 and is all-in (A fast re-raise. No Hollywood.)
spidermaan: calls $13 (A pretty fast call. No Hollywood.)
SvgePenguin: ???

Given my limited knowledge and limited reputation thus far, what would move would have the greatest expected value?
 
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pantin007

pantin007

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if i were u i would have reraised a little more preflop but the raise is not bad

certainly this is a push or fold situation, by calling ur basically committing ur chips to the pot, k well spidermaan has shown no aggression in this hand, hes just callin so im kinda putting him on the range of something like KQ or AQ of spades, so im putting him on either a weak king or a flush draw, the way the other villain played the hand kinda indicates 1 of 2 hands, 99 or AK, with that said i would push here
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

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Beautiful hand. Beautiful flop. Suspicious post-flop action.

My first instinct was to shove but I have a habit of overplaying big hands like this and losing. And I only had $5 invested at this time. If I played, I'd be putting another $20 in. So I thought about it awhile. Would a fold be smart or nitty? But I'm usually too aggressive, so maybe my judgment is off?

I'd have called for sure if Spidermaan shoved, but he just called the all-in re-raise. (He wasn't trying to chase me out)

I'll post the results tomorrow. More input would be appreciated.
 
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Bentheman87

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This might be a leak in my game but in this spot I'd call since they could easily have AK KQ or KJ.
 
Munchrs

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shove.

I put lws06912 on AK/KQ and spiderman on a FD.
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

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shove.

I put lws06912 on AK/KQ and spiderman on a FD.

That's what I thought. Or maybe K/J. I'll leak that neither had those hands though.

Again, I'll post tomorrow. Thanks for the input.
 
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feitr

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I'd probably put one on 99 and the other on QsJs or maybe K9 (be hard to justify calling a reraise with this but idk how he plays). Perhaps one had KK, but it wouldn't make any sense to flat call your reraise if he had KK. Tho, before you said that none of them had AK i probably would have put lws on AK.

Anywho, i think i would fold this...would probably shove if only one guy called but with 2 calling i don't think top pair can really be good. I also would have reraised alot more preflop. But it is very hard to tell without seeing them play at all. 10$ into a 40$ pot or w/e it would have been is probably a good deal IF you think they are capable of calling with a top pair and a flush draw. But if you think you are beat, then putting money in just coz you are getting good "odds" isn't really a good idea. I can't see somebody reraising all in on a board like that with KQ/AK unless they are very loose. More likely to have a set of 9s or 2 pair i would think. Although you probably have the advantage vs 2 pair (decent chance the board will pair) so only really got to worry if they flopped a set.
 
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SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

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All said and done, at this point do I commit my remaining $20.55 for a chance at a $64 pot? $20.55 more to get a $38 profit (after rake).

What actually happened in this hand doesn't matter, as it doesn't effect the question. I just wonder what the right move is over the long haul in this situation.

Thanks for the input Feitr.
 
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feitr

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I think you just have to trust your read on the players. It is all well and good me saying I think one of them might have 99, when I have no clue who they are and, who knows, they might very well call all in on bottom pair.

If one of them plays very tight, you are probably beat coz he will most likely have trips and at the very least 2 pair. A loose player you may very well have beaten. It all comes down to your read of the player, and that isn't really anything that somebody can help you with without having been at the table. 20$ into a pot of 64$ is a very good bet if you think one has AK/KQ and the other is on a flush draw. It is a terrible bet if you think that one of them hit trips and one is on a flush draw etc.

But looking at it from what you have written. He knows you have a good hand. He calls all in knowing full well he will probably get called by one or both players. He must THINK that he has the best hand. Hitting the K with KQ/AK might make him think he had the best hand if he was a looser player, hitting trips probably if he was tighter. I find it hard to see the other guy calling the all in with anything worse than QsJs, which would give him 12 outs, or mb 2 pair/set. He isn't going to call with simply a K or any under pair unless he is a complete idiot (and lets face it, at this stage of the hand, that is the ONLY hand you have beat). And, personally, I don't really like your chances vs both guys. But again, all comes down to what cards you think they are likely to have played.
 
SavagePenguin

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It wasn't $20 in a $64 pot. It was, assuming I was called, $20 to take a $64 pot. IE, $20 to win $44 (for a total of a $38 profit).

And this was about a dozen hands in, which isn't much to go on read-wise. They were in more pots than usual, and I guessed they were looser than usual players.

The reason I sat at the table was because the table was seeing the flop about 55%, and the average pot was around $5 or $6.

There were several games like that, and this was the fist one on my waiting list to open.
 
Munchrs

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K9 pops to mind, Lag players caling with any crap.
 
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feitr

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It wasn't $20 in a $64 pot. It was, assuming I was called, $20 to take a $64 pot. IE, $20 to win $44 (for a total of a $38 profit).

Yea when i said 20$ into a 64$ pot i was meaning exactly that. The pot would be 64$ after your money was in...
 
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Bentheman87

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"K9 pops to mind, Lag players caling with any crap."

Then they're just as likely to have king 5-8 and play it like this postflop.
 
Munchrs

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yea but K9 has a KING!!! OMG a King, almost as good as an ace. All-in, All-in, All-in.
 
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switch0723

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I fold this

spiderman flat calls a raise, then flat calls a 3 bet, you can assume they are set mining here 80-90% of the time. So assuming they are on a pp, they then flat call an all in trying to entice the initial raiser into the pot. I would say more often than not this is the typical play of a set, so i would lay this down
 
SavagePenguin

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I guess the question comes down to, do you think they have A/K and K/Q, or did Spidermaan make his set?

Here are the results:
I have A/A with $6 already in the pot...
*** FLOP *** [4s 9d Ks]
SvgePenguin: bets $3
lws06912: raises $10 to $13 and is all-in
spidermaan: calls $13
SvgePenguin: ???


I decide that they have K/J, K/Q, or A/K. And I'm steaming a bit so I'm willing to gamble.

SvgePenguin: raises $10.55 to $23.55 and is all-in
spidermaan: calls $10.55
*** TURN *** [4s 9d Ks] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [4s 9d Ks 2d] [Jc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SvgePenguin: shows [Ac Ah] (a pair of Aces)
spidermaan: shows [Kd 6d] (a pair of Kings)
SvgePenguin collected $20.35 from side pot
lws06912: mucks hand
SvgePenguin collected $43.25 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $66.60 Main pot $43.25. Side pot $20.35. | Rake $3
Board [4s 9d Ks 2d Jc]
Seat 1: SaltGrass59 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: baltorx folded before Flop
Seat 3: lws06912 mucked [Kh Td]
Seat 4: spidermaan (button) showed [Kd 6d] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: SvgePenguin (small blind) showed [Ac Ah] and won ($63.60) with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: Trackudown (big blind) folded before Flop


Ends up I wasn't the biggest idiot.
It wasn't until afterwards that I thought the results weren't going to be typical. I think, in that situation, someone's going to turn over a set most of the time. So I made a bad decision.
 
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switch0723

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wow spiderman sucks, find him and play him more imo
 
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feitr

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ya wow they are awful...

As to whether or not it was a bad decision...like i said before it all comes down to reading. There are MANY terrible players who see the flop, hit top pair even with no kicker, and think "omg wow all in". They don't even THINK about why you reraised them (ie. AA/KK/mb AK--basically every hand you reraise them with you have them beaten).

But that is why the reading is imo absolutely everything to poker. If you know what hands your opponents have then your decision will always be easy. If you put one on AK/KQ or KJ then you actually made a pretty good read and a good call. But just be careful when you are playing tighter/decent players...because in that situation you are at least 90% beat.

There is NEVER a generic "good call" or "bad call" it depends 100% on the players. Some players will call you to the river with middle pair and you make a killing and some players won't bet a dime unless they have the nuts etc etc.
 
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KingPalN

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wow... good call. but this players are so sick and somtimes he win with two pairs or set on the turn or river. but thats the problem of the micro limits, the players are very very sick.
 
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