50nl; QQ vs action

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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How do we go about playing queens here vs an unknown? 4-bet and fold to a shove pf? 4-bet and get it all in? smooth call and play a flop? raise flop? fold flop?

tbh I'm lost with this one. If I have some reads it becomes a lot easier but readless I'm not sure.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed)

Button ($38.25)
SB ($40.50)
BB ($58.20)
UTG ($9.25)
UTG+1 ($16.10)
MP1 ($53.45)
Hero ($50)
CO ($84.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q
spade.gif
, Q
diamond.gif
.
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 3 folds, BB raises to $7.5, Hero calls $5.75.

Flop: ($15.25) 3
diamond.gif
, 4
heart.gif
, 6
heart.gif
(2 players)
BB bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($35.25) T
diamond.gif
(2 players)
BB bets $40.7 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $-5.45

Don't ask me what I was trying to do here...I think just slow the action down and see a cheap showdown but that of course didn't happen...
 
tenbob

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Tricky one without reads Chuck. I played a QQ hand last night that played out very similar, the difference being I had a read on him, the hand played out almost exactly the same apart from I raised his flop bet and called his shove.

I dont know if AA/KK really takes this line on such a dry board, AKh may take this line, but I feel more like you gonna see JJ/1010 more often than anything else here. Given you didnt raise the flop, I fold now.
 
tosborn

tosborn

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I fold because I don't want to lose any more money......
Final Pot: $-5.45

Actually, without reads, I think we have to fold. Could be a set, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or possibly some sort of flush draw (ie: AK soooooted). I don't think we are ahead enough of the time against an unknown to make this a profitable play. The overbet preflop is throwing me off a little.

Three betting preflop probably would have been the way to go in retrospect, but, I can't fault your line.
 
R

red_dawn_28

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Given that he reraised you PF I think this is AA, KK a majority of the time. most players wouldn’t reraise with TT or JJ IMO. the bet on the flop could just be a c-bet – if you were prepared to call another $15 on the turn then maybe you raise to $25 on the flop but that would really only get AK to fold so I wouldn’t recommend that play. he is not going to give you credit for a set. as played you are praying for AK, or JJ right? those are the only hands you can beat. this reeks of someone who sees AA or KK and feels they are entitled to win the hand no matter what.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Given you didnt raise the flop, I fold now.

so vs an unknown you raise flop? then fold to a shove or call?

Three betting preflop probably would have been the way to go in retrospect, but, I can't fault your line.

(4-bet, not 3-bet), but are we calling a shove if he comes over the top?

My issue isn't exactly what we do there on the turn (as red dawn said, we'd be banking on him having JJ or AK there), but rather what different line we should take.

Like with aces, we're always stacking pf, no exceptions. KK is the same, but I think I can find a fold if we're both very deep and I have good reads on him. JJ I slow down to a 3-bet and try to play some postflop poker but what should I be doing with QQ???
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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No useful input from me here I'm afraid - just posting to say I hate this hand and have no idea what to do on any street (which makes it a good but frustrating choice for the HA forum, heh).
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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If you fold pf then you avoid the heartache that inevitably occurs with QQ vs action, but..meh. This is why readless poker is so painful, but I guess it does allow a purely theoretical approach (again - meh). So firstly what could vil take this line with (barring 72o et al.)

(following are generalisations)
- Overbet pf looks like JJ
- Small flop bet looks like weak c-bet - AK most likely AKh or overpair seeing dry board and wanting action from AK and the like + lower pairs -- not wanting to lose action.
- Large turn shove looks like either overpair scared of AKh or AKh reading our flop call as weak.

as played you are praying for AK, or JJ right? those are the only hands you can beat.

Indeed, but these look considerably more likely than AA,KK imo, though of course these are still possible;
The overbet preflop is throwing me off a little.
and this is precisely why I think AA,KK are less likely. JJ does this as it doesn't want cheap action from AK and AK does this as it doesn't want any action from JJ.

So what's our line?
4-bet and fold to a shove pf
I think loses us the least value, as generally at 50nl I don't think we're going to see a shove from JJ or AK, although going into this readless isn't great as there still is some fishy play. We will end up having to call a flop bet like here of at least $10 most of the time so I say invest that 10 bucks earlier in the hand and don't play so much icky postflop :)
 
tenbob

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A NL$50 one that played out "similar" to yours, apart from this time I have postion. (and it was 6 max but its playing out similiar)

POKERSTARS GAME #5509080502: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/07/09 - 22:24:20 (ET)
Table 'Ostara' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Andielyn ($76.20 in chips)
Seat 2: pitbulz ($19.70 in chips)
Seat 3: m911e ($47.75 in chips)
Seat 4: tenbob ($59.40 in chips)
Seat 6: BigRed0000 ($51.40 in chips)
amler will be allowed to play after the button
BigRed0000: posts small blind $0.25
Andielyn: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tenbob [Qs Qd]
pitbulz: folds
m911e: folds
tenbob: raises $1.50 to $2
BigRed0000: raises $5 to $7
Andielyn: folds
tenbob: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [5d 2d 6c]
BigRed0000: bets $8
tenbob: raises $8 to $16
BigRed0000: calls $8
*** TURN *** [5d 2d 6c] [5c]
BigRed0000: bets $28.40 and is all-in
tenbob: calls $28.40
*** RIVER *** [5d 2d 6c 5c] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BigRed0000: shows [9h 9c] (two pair, Nines and Fives)
tenbob: shows [Qs Qd] (two pair, Queens and Fives)
tenbob collected $101.30 from pot
BigRed0000 leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $103.30 | Rake $2
Board [5d 2d 6c 5c Jd]
Seat 1: Andielyn (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: pitbulz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: m911e folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: tenbob (button) showed [Qs Qd] and won ($101.30) with two pair, Queens and Fives
Seat 6: BigRed0000 (small blind) showed [9h 9c] and lost with two pair, Nines and Fives
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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chuck, i think preflop is fine against an unknown (or most players at full ring, really). you have a made hand in position and you really don't let him know where you're at when you just call. barring reads or history, 4betting will fold out most of the TT/JJ type hands that you reeeally want to keep in the pot for value and bust on an all low card flop

i probably just shove the flop. he'll have AA/KK sometimes but screw it, your hand is underrepresented, and one of the main benefits of just calling preflop is to try to take advantage of that fact. he's rarely gonna fold TT/JJ for that reason. also you don't give AK a free shot to hit on the turn

i don't hate the way you played it though. he's probably not gonna barrel it again unless he's got you beat, whether it's via outdrawing on the turn or he had AA/KK in the first place. but he'll still sometimes have JJ/AKd/AKh/99/something goofy
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Thanks Liam.

Did you minraise there with the intention of folding to a flop push?

edit: thanks combu, too.

I saw that recent thread where you shoved QQ on a rag flop after similar pf action and shoving went through my mind there...not sure why I didn't. I think I like your line best so far though.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Getting more money in preflop, IMHO, is pretty bad unless villain is the type to shove TT, JJ, AK, AQ. By calling, we get a chance to see his reaction and we do not give up our positional advantage.

Your hand is very underrepped while he probably is banking on FE equity a lot on this flop (donking into you, wanting you to fold the crap with wich you tried to steal) so BB hands actually looks scarier than it probably is. I probably shove this flop since there are a lot more combos of hands we beat that bet this 10$ than hands that beat us (4 AA, 4 KK) and I don't see 33,44,66 reraising preflop, so this is a set about never.

Sure we are losing value from 99-JJ some of the time, but we are again, very underrepped even by shoving this in villain's eyes. I would play AKs this way sometimes too... As played, fold turn since his range has been very polarized towards hands that beat us and the only way he can get value and pricing out the flush is by shoving. I can't see AK shooting a second barrell.
 
blankoblanco

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slightly offtopic but how is 50nl going for you, CT? seeing all your 25nl threads not too long ago, i was thinking it definitely wouldnt hurt you to move up and right then you did. i never spent much time at either level so i dunno if the skill difference is significant at all
 
Bombjack

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I'm afraid my answer is that it's read-dependent... if he's tight, fold, but you're getting good odds here - you need to be good less than 1 time in 3... supposing he plays JJ this way, as well as AA / KK, then you have odds to call. It's also a bunch of other hands quite often too, if you think he's re-raising more than AA / KK out of the BB. Without a read I probably call and put it down as a cooler the times he has AA / KK. FWIW I don't think a bigger-than-pot size re-raise out of the BB is unusual at all with AA / KK, or any hand he's re-raising with; a good player will do this with any re-raiseable hand to compensate for being OOP.
 
Lo-Dog

Lo-Dog

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I've changed my answer five times at least but it all seems to come down to reads, of which, you have none.

From my experience (only 4k hands) typical player here has JJ+, AK.
That flop is either gold or your demise, you may have escaped relatively cheap.
 
Bombjack

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Well really, what kind of flop are you hoping for with QQ, if you don't flop a set...
 
NineLions

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Chuck, any later reads to indicate what his most likely holding here was? I'm curious to know what kind of player he turned out to be making these plays.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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No sir, he left before I could get anything on him. Or maybe it was me who left, but either way, I don't really know a thing about the guy.
 
J

joeeagles

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I also like the line of flat calling PF then shoving the c-bet.

Funny how this type of situation keeps showing up, raising with QQ and getting 3bet from OOP player. In a almost identical hand, this was dbitel's comment on how to play it https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/100nl-hand-qq-vs-4-bet-shove-91175/ , which makes sense.

At the time I discussed Bitel's post on this hand with Irexes through multiple PM's, for the reason that his whole thought process is intended for a cash game context, and I wanted to know if Rex would consider this play in a tournament, of course if stacks are big enough to allow it (i.e., just flat calling with QQ from the button after getting 3bet from one of the blinds, as opposed to 4betting/shove).

Combu recently posted a very similar hand, again with QQ getting 3bet from player OOP, and he played it exactly that way, shoving the c-bet. I posted in that thread before results were given, and my post suggested that line mainly because of Bitel's comments. I think in Combu's hand that line applies even more so than here, because his was at a 6-handed table.

We'll never know if Chuck was right or not to fold here, but if we don't shove his $10 c-bet on a 6-high flop then we shouldn't call his PF 3bet either. The whole point of flat calling is that we're planning to shove that type of flop (no A no K), we clearly should not be calling just hoping to improve our hand to a set, we're outpriced for it anyway. That's not to criticize Chuck, I'd probably fold on the turn also now that a T showed up which is very much in his range (TT). I'm just trying to make the point that a hand like this is all about planning. If you're not comfortable, against this player, shoving the flop when it comes 6-high, then fold PF to the 3bet.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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We'll never know if Chuck was right or not to fold here, but if we don't shove his $10 c-bet on a 6-high flop then we shouldn't call his PF 3bet either. The whole point of flat calling is that we're planning to shove that type of flop (no A no K), we clearly should not be calling just hoping to improve our hand to a set, we're outpriced for it anyway. That's not to criticize Chuck, I'd probably fold on the turn also now that a T showed up which is very much in his range (TT). I'm just trying to make the point that a hand like this is all about planning. If you're not comfortable, against this player, shoving the flop when it comes 6-high, then fold PF to the 3bet.

Criticism is more than welcome, Joe. I realize I played this hand pretty messily, and it all started with pf - I basically didn't have a plan. 'pot control' and 'don't stack with qq pf' ran through my head briefly, but other than that I was pretty much not paying enough attention nor was I really thinking the hand through.

Like I mentioned I really like just smooth calling then shoving the flop (after reading it from you guys :)). We'll keep the smaller pairs in (if he's really bad he might even stack with the worst of overpairs here), and we also give ourselves a chance to let go of our hand if the flop is really ugly. We also buy ourselves a lot of equity vs AK.

Anyways, mental note taken on this one, and I'll post a similar hand with adjustments when/if I run into one :)

Thanks for the input folks, and again I'm loving the discussion going on in HA right now. PLEASE keep it up, this is great.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Pot control is good and all, but it's becoming the new "raise to see where you're at": it shouldn't be running through your mind everytime and it is becoming amaybe a bit too common on CC. You have the third nuts preflop that are probably the immortal nuts on this flop, you should looking at reasons to get it in and get called by worse, not seeing monsters under the bed. We make money when we enable our opponent to make huge mistakes (such as calling with 77-JJ here).

Plus, if it's AA, KK, you have outs! If you bust, reload, you played it fine. This is about the safest/most profitable board for QQ due to 77+ calling our "obvious" AK up. And remember that you have way more combos of AK, AQ, JJ, TT, 99 than combos of AA, KK, so your chances of being in front and winning are good (since I doubt AK calls).
 
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