50nl; JJ overpair vs flop ch-r

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed)

CO ($28.70)
Button ($32.05)
SB ($107.50)
BB ($122.55)
UTG ($50.90)
UTG+1 ($21.45)
MP1 ($60.15)
Hero ($67.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J
diamond.gif
, J
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.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.25, 4 folds, MP1 calls $1.75.

Flop: ($5.25) 9
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, 3
club.gif
, T
club.gif
(2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $3.75, MP1 raises to $8, Hero hates these spots...

Villain is 22/4/2 over a few hundred hands. Recently on a different table he played a set in a multiway limped pot fairly passively, calling a flop bet, betting the turn small and betting the river small, all on a pretty big action board.

I've been tag again as usual.

What's our plan for the hand?
 
calibanboy

calibanboy

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My only comment is that this is not a hand you want to get stacked on. There are better spots than this.

This is something that I have been saying to myself when I too am in this position.

If you fold you could be losing a winning hand.
If you call, what you going to do next. ? You do not know where you are in the hand.
If you reraise your only hope is that he folds as anything else and you do not know where you are ( refer to my original statement at top of reply also).

Whats the best of the 3 evils!!??
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

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These spots suck.

In this case I might just call the flop and re-evaluate on the turn. This board could develop nicely for us.

In other spots like this I'll usually call one street and see how villain responds to that. If he keeps up the aggession I'm folding most of the time.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I call and re-evaluate on the turn. He may be trying to get a free card with a str or flush draw. I like controlling pot size here and getting away if action gets too heavy. You have position, so use it.
 
zachvac

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Well on the one hand you're getting 3.5:1 to call here. On the other hand can you possibly call here knowing that only 2 cards in the deck will actually make the hand easier? And even then, there's a straight out there. I don't think I'd call here, I would most likely raise. Too many draws out there, and he's aggressive enough, and plays enough hands to make a move with something like a flush draw. I guess you could also easily fold here, but I'm thinking raising you make it around $20, but you hate to lose 1/3 of your stack to this kind of hand, a smaller raise just makes a flush draw call. As mentioned before I think a call is a mistake, just because you still have no idea what the hell's going on. I'm really stuck on this one, I'd probably end up raising if I had to act quick, but it doesn't look like there's really any good move here.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I don't view 22/4/2 as agro. And bloating the pot is a bad idea.
 
blankoblanco

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i'd call and re-eval turn. you have position, which is key. the other key is his raise size. it's on the small side, which makes draws somewhat less likely in my experience, because they usually like to raise big to increase their fold equity. these size raises often polarize their range between either legitimately strong hands that they're trying to bait you in with, or cheap stabs at the pot with air/something very weak. if that judgment of his range is at all correct, calling is clearly better than raising
 
S

switch0723

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I think everyone has the right idea with the call and reevaluate in position. The problem is what if the turn comes an 8 and mp1 leads out big, what then? So id call then be cautious on a dangerous turn
 
Four Dogs

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AT looks like a strong possibiltiy. No?
 
S

snrcreech

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In spots like this you have to rely on you preflop read and what your gut tells you. These spots or putting people in these spots is what poker's all about.
 
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switch0723

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In spots like this you have to rely on you preflop read and what your gut tells you. These spots or putting people in these spots is what poker's all about.

Well theres your answer, thats the kind of advice you want :confused:
 
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snrcreech

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Well here then. If my preflop read was pocket 9's my gut would tell me to fold. If my "PREFLOP" read was A 10 my gut would be to reraise all in. If my preflop read was 2 clubs I'd call and be prepared to fold. If my preflop read was pocket Q's then I would fold. So maybe this is more clear for you switch lol
 
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skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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Preflop reads shouldn't be limited to 1 specific hand, but a RANGE of hands. Then you need to consider the probability of your holding vs. that range. It's a bad idea to get locked into 1 hand only. You narrow down your range based on the player and his play during the hand.
 
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snrcreech

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Preflop reads shouldn't be limited to 1 specific hand, but a RANGE of hands. Then you need to consider the probability of your holding vs. that range. It's a bad idea to get locked into 1 hand only. You narrow down your range based on the player and his play during the hand.

Exactly. That's where you are relying on your gut feel and your preflop read. So to break it down if you think you are ahead and not worried about flush drawn be very aggressive. If you think you are likely beat FOLD FOLD FOLD.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Well here then. If my preflop read was pocket 9's my gut would tell me to fold. If my "PREFLOP" read was A 10 my gut would be to reraise all in.

lol, because you can really tell by the way he called your preflop raise if he's got 99 or AT. the fact that he limp-called means he's probably not a good player and his range is very wide

and your further advice is: if you think you're behind fold, if you think you're ahead raise. brilliant! this poker stuff is easy
 
NineLions

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. the other key is his raise size. it's on the small side, which makes draws somewhat less likely in my experience, because they usually like to raise big to increase their fold equity. these size raises often polarize their range between either legitimately strong hands that they're trying to bait you in with, or cheap stabs at the pot with air/something very weak.

Thanks for this thought combu. This is something I've been aware of, but I don't keep in mind often enough.


In this case Chuck is saying that the villian has bet at pots small, although he doesn't say whether the guy had a big hand or not. But, it may just be the villian's style of betting to bet small.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Man I played this like doody.

I call the raise, as well as turn and river bets on seemingly innocuous cards for near stacks, he shows down 33 for bottom set.

fwiw I think I like 3-betting that flop and shutting down if called/raised. As zach mentioned, there are hardly any cards in the deck that make us feel safer (aside from a J which isn't exactly great either as it fills up 78), and we should try to end the hand now. If we reraise, we do lose some value from AT and bluffs, but we also save lots of money in comparison with calling down blindly.
 
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