50nl; getting value from our JTd nut straight

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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MP is 22/0/1.6, and CO is much more aggressive at 27/17/7. We've been tag again. As for my reads, I'd say MP is sitting on at worst a weak single pair hand like J9, and at best 98 or even a set. CO had been very aggressive, and I'm not really sure what to pin him on here. Could be a monster slowplaying, could be A9 trying to keep the pot a little small, not really sure...

Anyways, extraction time...

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed)

Button ($83.75)
SB ($52.65)
Hero ($65.40)
UTG ($12.05)
MP ($50)
CO ($63.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J
diamond.gif
, T
diamond.gif
.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.75) 8
spade.gif
, 2
heart.gif
, 9
diamond.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $1.2, MP raises to $2.5, CO calls $2.50, Hero calls $1.30.

Turn: ($9.25) Q
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero ...
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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Leads out for $5.50.

I think check raising is going to be like waving a big "hey, I have the straight" flag, and leading out gives you the opportunity to get raised. We'd like to grow this pot, and being raised again on the turn would be a great way to get our chips in. Plus something half the pot-ish looks like a weak "feeler" bet. A guy with 2 pair/a set may fire again.
 
S

switch0723

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id say lead out small, something like 2.50 to make it look like a stopper bet, hoping that mp will re raising again, if he does i think pushing will be the best option following his re raise
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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I don't think that CO would cold call here with anything but some sort of straight draw like yours, as although it could be a slowplayed set hoping you are going to come over the top his aggro factor makes me think this is less likely, though of course not impossible. MP's uncharacteristic raise, as basically a calling station means we've hit the gold mine imo as he has defo not betting a draw or any hand he's willing to give up too soon, so as far as our line goes I say

Leads out for $5.50.

I think check raising is going to be like waving a big "hey, I have the straight" flag, and leading out gives you the opportunity to get raised. We'd like to grow this pot, and being raised again on the turn would be a great way to get our chips in. Plus something half the pot-ish looks like a weak "feeler" bet. A guy with 2 pair/a set may fire again.

Correct line imo, as we pretty much know that MP isn't folding so swell it up. I like the small/weak bet as we are going to get raised a lot of the time here by a set and even a protective 98 so I'm fairly sure this maximises value from these hands as opposed to c/r for the "flag waving" reasons stated above. I think after this we do push some more, probably a shove depending on the raise size, to protect against a set filling up. Of course if CO gets involved some more then all the better, but if this does happen we will most likely find ourselves in a split pot :(.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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i ch/raised but I prefer leading a lot more.

I mean what happens if it goes bet-raise back to us? or if he puts out a really scared turn bet, then villain 2 folds? That'll pretty much kill a lot of action and I agree that betting right out is much better.
 
S

switch0723

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are you going to share the result in detail then or do we have to guess lol
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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God switch you're so results orientated :eek:

He made the less good play which is what you should learn from this (newbywooby) :)
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I'm just leaving it open for more discussion :) I'll post the results in a bit.
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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Okay, here's a problem with leading out for $5.50:

Button ($83.75)
SB ($52.65)
Hero ($65.40)
UTG ($12.05)
MP ($50)
CO ($63.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J
diamond.gif
, T
diamond.gif
.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.75) 8
spade.gif
, 2
heart.gif
, 9
diamond.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $1.2, MP raises to $2.5, CO calls $2.50, Hero calls $1.30.

Turn: ($9.25) Q
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $5.5, MP calls $5.50, CO folds.

River: ($20.25) 9c
Hero checks, MP bets $15, Hero ...


The flat call on the turn makes it look like he really could be in here with just A9, but 98 trying to get to cheap showdown is very possible, or a set correctly putting you on a straight draw on the flop which slowed down once the Q hit...
 
KyleJRM

KyleJRM

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Hero calls.

I don't think the fact that a nut hand can be redrawn is a good enough reason not to lead out. In fact, it is a good enough reason to get more money in now while things are still crystal clear.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I bet near the pot on the turn. Not looking to give a free card to a hand like K9ss or Q9ss or a set or the like. I tend to play any decent hand more agro though so it will depend a bit on your image in maxing value imo.
 
Tobmeister

Tobmeister

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I bet near the pot on the turn. Not looking to give a free card to a hand like K9ss or Q9ss or a set or the like. I tend to play any decent hand more agro though so it will depend a bit on your image in maxing value imo.

I agree with everything else but why are you worried about giving a free card to a set?

I think if the aforementioned half pot bet was used, then it could be mistaken for weakness, so if we put our opponent on a set we want them to think we are weak, making them more likely to call/raise on the river on the river
 
G

GivPeace

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Just to get more out of this discussion what if you were to check and smooth call a raise or re-raise. If a blank comes out ( no Spades or the board pairs ) Bet over the pot to make it look like a steal. If a danger card came out you could make a defensive bet and find where you were at .Not sure if this is a good play but I thought we could keep this thread going... ur play
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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Just to get more out of this discussion what if you were to check and smooth call a raise or re-raise. If a blank comes out ( no Spades or the board pairs ) Bet over the pot to make it look like a steal. If a danger card came out you could make a defensive bet and find where you were at .Not sure if this is a good play but I thought we could keep this thread going... ur play

I like swelling the pot while it's 3-way and while we have the best hand, but if we were to c/c the turn - which of course has the benefit of disguising our hand - and a scare card comes I'm pretty sure that scaredy-betting is our worst line, as it opens us up to bluffs (our weak c/c on the turn contributes to this) and also value raises, so we really don't have a clue where we are. A much better line imo is c/c or even c/f depending on reads or if its still 3-way with loads and loads of action. But if the pot is HU to the river and the scare card doesn't come I think leading out will only get called from a set/2p not raised, as the c/c turn then lead out river looks fairly trappy and this would not be getting enough value from the turn trap imo. If we check the river though a set/2p is sure as hell going to value bet as we have only called all the way so a c/r river continuation of this line has > EV that a bet line imo.
 
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B

bw07507

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I think from a 22/0/1.6 a minraise screams 1 of 2 things. Either he has a set/2 pair or he has absolutely nothing. If he has a set, you're getting it all in vs him no matter what and if he has nothing your probably not getting much more. To me it looks like CO has a drawing hand like yourself, but perhaps he has a monster and is looking to trap.

I would lead out for about 1/3-1/2 pot, making it look like a fairly weak bet and hopefully one of them comes over the top.
 
S

switch0723

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God switch you're so results orientated :eek:

He made the less good play which is what you should learn from this (newbywooby) :)

I do apolagise, its just chuck sort of half posted hte result, so i thought he had heard enough discussions. Sorry all
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($83.75)
SB ($52.65)
Hero ($65.40)
UTG ($12.05)
MP ($50)
CO ($63.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J
diamond.gif
, T
diamond.gif
.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.75) 8
spade.gif
, 2
heart.gif
, 9
diamond.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $1.2, MP raises to $2.5, CO calls $2.50, Hero calls $1.30.

Turn: ($9.25) Q
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $4.5, CO raises to $11, Hero raises to $35, MP folds, CO raises to $60.65, Hero calls $25.65.

River: ($135.05) T
club.gif
(2 players)

Final Pot: $135.05

Results in white below:
Hero has Jd Td (straight, queen high).
CO has 2d 2s (three of a kind, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins $135.05.

I'm still convinced I could have gotten more value with a different line...
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I'm really late into this thread, but before I got to the end and the results I'm thinking bet out; $7. As it turned out, that line might not have got much more; MP probably calls, CO raises or shoves and MP folds with only a bit more gained by the MP call.

I don't think betting out would arouse too much suspicion because you bet out the same percentage of the flop; your semibluff on the flop set you up to make money by leading the turn when the straight filled.

As played, did you consider smooth calling the CO raise on the turn, or did you think that was already too much pressure for MP? I'm not saying I like that idea, but it would have crossed my mind. CO isn't going anywhere but maybe we can keep MP in the hand while risking a set filling?
 
J

joeeagles

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Im also late to this thread, and while I think that leading out is better, I doubt much would have changed. As NL said, you maybe would have gotten a couple bucks more. Also, it's good that it turned out the way it did with all the money going in before the river, because that T could have killed action. Chuck I'm not sure why your thinking you could have gotten more value, maybe you mean that your raise to $35 was too big for MP to call?

Things could have gone worse in this hand when you think about it. For the sake of it, lets say you lead out for $7, MP calls and CO raises to $20. What do you do now? The big problem now is that you might raise again, but you might also be tempted to just call the raise in an attempt to get a call from MP, who might just fold anyway. As it turns out, this could have cost you some because that river is an action killer. You'd have $42 left, so at best you can lead out again on the river for $20, and if only CO calls your bet it turns out you actually made $7.50 less. That's just one scenario, I can come up with others where you lose even more than $7.50, all because you're trying to get action from MP.

This is results oriented of course, but nevertheless it all applies, because when board has a straight and flush draw like in our case there always is the chance that an action killer card comes on the river just because there are so many of them, up to 13 in this hand and that's not counting the board pairing, so it's best to get as much in the pot as possible.

One more thing. Lets say you check/raise less than $24, specifically rather than making it $35 to go you make it $22. I don't think much changes from MP's perspective, because it's still a raise and reraise after his bet, so unless he has a strong hand, like a set or a big double draw, he just has to fold because of the threat that CO could raise again. Even hands like top 2 pair are forced to fold there, because they're clearly behind and with little chance to improve. However you look at it, MP is faced with a triple danger, which are a raise, a reraise and the chance CO raises again, with the latter being the biggest threat, so only a very strong hand can hang in there unless he's a donk (there always is that chance though, nothing bad in being optimistic, right :) ?).

Seriously, I think you got the most out of this. Without being results oriented, I prefer leading out because of the chance it gets checked around. If that happens, your hopes of playing for a big pot end right there. I know you said that CO was aggressive, but the fact he's in position in a limped pot can mean he called that flop bet and raise with a huge variety of hands, and not all of them might bet the turn. MP looks like he has a hand because he raised your flop bet, but as was said it could simply be some kind of A9 hand since it's a limped pot, and the fact his raise was called by both of you + the turn bringing an overcard might slow him down. Going for the check/raise has some merits, but bottom line is that, IMO, leading out is the better play because it gives you the greatest chance of playing for a big pot, which ultimately is what you want.
 
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