50NL 6max -Nines OOP

Bombjack

Bombjack

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I haven't been on the table very long but MP has been fairly active, something like 25/22/oo in 30 hands.

My best action?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($64.10)
CO ($40.80)
Button ($49.25)
Hero ($49.35)
BB ($29.20)
UTG ($34.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9
heart.gif
, 9
club.gif
.
UTG calls $0.50, MP raises to $2.5, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.25, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($6) J
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, 5
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, 5
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $4.7, Hero calls $4.70.

Turn: ($15.40) 4
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $12.75, Hero...
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

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Did you check call the flop for set value or are you playing this like a WA/WB situation?

I personally lead the flop and see what he does in return, or I might c/r the flop and fold to a push. I just think that check-calling down isn't great because you never truly identify where you are in the hand and he's going to value bet you to death.

AK/AQ might not fire the turn which makes me think you're behind an overpair. Obviously I wasn't at the table so a bit hard to call. As played I fold that turn.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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CR the flop and fold to a 3 bet.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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Broken record. I think off the flop, check raising would have been perfect there. I thought that's where this HH was going, but guess not.

As played, on the turn there, I really don't like check calling down at all there. I don't think we can float one again. You can't check call in this position with that hand. Best move at this point after that turn card, as played on the flop, is just check-fold.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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CR the flop and fold to a 3 bet.

i think i disagree with this. anything that dominates this flop wont be 3betting. especially someone who is "active" and especially so on a dry board.

as played i think i peel another and evaluate on the river. folding seems weak tight. we called pf to keep the pot low since we are oop. if we play the flop equally as passive and fold on the turn vs this opponent we should have just folded PF.

edit: keep in mind we may very well be ahead. villian could have 88-66 or a/x and has picked up a flush draw after cbetting.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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Being OOP, I think CR the flop is almost mandatory. Calling down is extremely weak and you have no idea where you stand in the hand. I agree with Estelle that as played, a ck/fold turn is about as good as it gets, unfortunately.
 
J

joeeagles

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Being OOP, I think CR the flop is almost mandatory. Calling down is extremely weak and you have no idea where you stand in the hand.


I'm not too sure I agree with this either. If we're going to check/raise this flop, how much would this raise have to be to make any sense? Villain bet $4.70 on the flop, so for a raise to discourage 2 overcards from calling I think we'd have to make it at least $13, so villain would need $8.70 to call. I'm not saying this doesn't make sense but I'm not so sure its a perfect strategy either. I like what Joose says about pot control and I think a check/raise, after a pot size bet from villain on the flop, is forcing us to pay a price a little too steep if we're doing it just for information, since we're forced to check/fold the turn if he calls the raise. I mean if its going to go that far, that its going to cost you $15.50, then you're almost better off to fold PF and not get into this mess to begin with, or just play for set value and fold the flop if you miss.

I think what Schatzdog said about leading the flop is a better solution with only 1 overcard on a pretty dry flop. Granted it doesn't give you any info for the turn if he smooth calls but it allows you to keep the pot small which is probably your biggest priority with unimproved nines OOP, in my modest opinion.

As played, it doesn't look like there's a chance to call this down lightly on the river so w/o a read on this guy I think its best to give it up here.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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as played if deepstacked and/or properly rolled i call down almost any river as well for info on his aggression.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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as played if deepstacked and/or properly rolled i call down almost any river as well for info on his aggression.

I don't think that this is a case where you call down almost any river for info on his aggression. Yes, there are times when the pot odds that are given to you, along with the info you can acquire, makes it worth calling down with a decent hand against an aggressive player--this isn't one of them.

I don't think the price is worth just blatantly calling down any river, just for information. Other situations, yes, but here with the pot size as is and considering how we played the flop, calling down any river shouldn't be an option.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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No-one's suggested raising /shoving the turn...?
 
stormswa

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No-one's suggested raising /shoving the turn...?


why would we shove the turn, what are you representing by that? how could the 4s possibly help our hand or what hand are you representing that we slowplayed?

JJ will not shove here now that flush draw has showed up, only thing we could try to represent would be something like 6s7s that we just floated on flop or like A-5, because overpair would not just call this flop either.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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In the hand, I really felt I was ahead so shoved, and he folded AQ.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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In the hand, I really felt I was ahead so shoved, and he folded AQ.

but isnt that just looking at results from one hand, one time?

you think if you made this play 100 times you would end up + or - ?

as important as it is to win the hand making the most profitable decisions over a long time is more important.
 
A

alan1983

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The turn doesnt necessarily have 2 help you to have it make sense to shove or raise it.

In fact most flopped monsters will wait till turn to shove/raise anyway.

A flop raise is too often "i dont believe that helped you", while raising turn is stronger imo.
 
dbitel

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C/R this flop is terrible. I'd like to explain why...but I get the feeling that over half my posts on this site have been explaining why c/r in this kind of spot is bad.

Personally, vs this player, I ALWAYS c/c the flop, and also c/c the turn a lot of the time. I would then normally c/f the river, but this all depends on many variables
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

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Why is check-raising so bad?

Also, what's the value in calling the flop and turn and then c/f the river? Aren't you just building a bigger pot without a really good idea of whether you are ahead or behind? How do you really differentiate between strength and weakness on this hand and at what point would you do it, if at all?
 
dbitel

dbitel

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oh man...looks like im at it again

if you raise, all you do is fold out worse hands and build the pot for better hands which he ISN'T FOLDING.

If he's bluffing, why not let him keep bluffing?

There's no FD or SD out there, so he never has more than 6 outs

If we're behind, we want to catch up for cheaper

In general, raising for information is bad not only for the above reasons, but also because he might push a worse hand and make us fold the winner and because the information is never worth the price we pay for it

The value in c/c the flop and turn and c/f the river is because he will cbet the flop with 100% of his range (which we are way ahead) however, he will only 3barrel bluff with a small % of his range (and if for some reason you think he will 3 barrell bluff with a very high % of his range, then it should be plainly obvious that c/c all 3 streets is FAR better than c/r the flop)
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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if you raise, all you do is fold out worse hands and build the pot for better hands which he ISN'T FOLDING.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

it's true that for some reason this board is super obsessed with raising in spots like this so we "know where we're at". i don't know where everybody learned this at, but folding out all worse hands and putting more money in the pot against better hands is not how you make money at poker
 
A

alan1983

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Just because youre ahead on flop or turn doesnt mean youll still be on river.

If he has 2 overcards then shouldnt you raise at one point?

How many times dyou call down only 2 see he paird his king or ace on river.

Theres an argument for calling down but also a good one for raising.

Specially since any high card that falls + a big bet from him will put us in a tough decision. And a good player will know that so will have a shot at winning even when one of his six outs doesnt fall.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Just because youre ahead on flop or turn doesnt mean youll still be on river.

If he has 2 overcards then shouldnt you raise at one point?

How many times dyou call down only 2 see he paird his king or ace on river.

Dbitel's point is that the risk of letting your opponent outdraw you is greatly outweighed by the reward of calling down and seeing a cheap showdown with what is likely the best hand.

Again like he said, if he's got overcards, he's drawing to a measely 6 outs.

Theres an argument for calling down but also a good one for raising.

Specially since any high card that falls + a big bet from him will put us in a tough decision. And a good player will know that so will have a shot at winning even when one of his six outs doesnt fall.

If an ace/king drops on the river and he fires a third bullet, we can be very sure he's got us beat. Noone is going to fire out bets with, say, KQ on this board, and then yet another on the river when an ace drops. You'd have to find a very aggressive player to do that.

We're not raising for info because (again, as dbitel said) we're only giving money to better hands, and shutting out those we have beat.

Calling down (to the turn at least) is probably the cheapest way, and 'best', to go about this hand.
 
J

joeeagles

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oh man...looks like im at it again

if you raise, all you do is fold out worse hands and build the pot for better hands which he ISN'T FOLDING.

If he's bluffing, why not let him keep bluffing?

There's no FD or SD out there, so he never has more than 6 outs

If we're behind, we want to catch up for cheaper

In general, raising for information is bad not only for the above reasons, but also because he might push a worse hand and make us fold the winner and because the information is never worth the price we pay for it

The value in c/c the flop and turn and c/f the river is because he will cbet the flop with 100% of his range (which we are way ahead) however, he will only 3barrel bluff with a small % of his range (and if for some reason you think he will 3 barrell bluff with a very high % of his range, then it should be plainly obvious that c/c all 3 streets is FAR better than c/r the flop)


This makes much more sense than the "check-raising for info".

I disagreed with the check-raise in my 1st post, first because I thought the price was too high for it if its only for "info", and mostly because keeping the pot small is infinitely more important. There are 3 more arguments in dbitel's post that stand out:

1)You'll fold out worse hands. Let them keep bluffing
2)You'll build the pot for better hands
3)If we're behing, we try to catch up for cheaper

It's also true that he may push a worse hand and force us to fold. Nice post +++++++rep.
 
J

joeeagles

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

it's true that for some reason this board is super obsessed with raising in spots like this so we "know where we're at". i don't know where everybody learned this at, but folding out all worse hands and putting more money in the pot against better hands is not how you make money at poker


Again, you're right with this Combu. I've never read anywhere, in any book, that you should "check-raise for info". The check-raise tool is so abused that its ridiculous. Sklansky explains many situations where you should check-raise and there is no sense in going through them since I'm sure most have read his books, and NEVER EVER does he suggest to do it for "info", which as you say this board is obsessed with.

With this hand, this thread https://www.cardschat.com/f49/call-down-3rd-pair-there-method-my-madness-87711/ comes back to mind, where you ended up getting his whole stack taking the chance of getting outdrawn. Calling down has much more merits than check-raising, its taking a 3 to 1 risk, from flop to river, of getting outdrawn when opponent has 6 outs, and in most cases its less expensive than check-raising and gives you more value. I could go on and on since I've learned a lot about this, but I think its pointless.
 
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