[50ln 6max] KK vs cold 4-bet deep

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Original raiser is a 24/20 over 300+ hands and we've definitely got some 3-betting history. The cold 4-better is 27.5/8 over 120+ hands and i have no history with him.

poker stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $125.60
BTN: $35.05
SB: $48.95
BB: $182.75
UTG: $49.25
MP: $50

Pre-Flop: K
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K
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dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, MP raises to $2, Hero raises to $6.75, 2 folds, BB raises to $13.50, MP folds, Hero ...

Second scenario:

UTG folds, MP raises to $2, Hero raises to $6.75, 2 folds, BB raises to $13.50, MP raises to $50 and is All-In, Hero ...
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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Tough spot. I don't think there is anything wrong with a shove, but in position, I might just see a flop. In the second scenario I'm probably shoving over the top always without any other info. There is no shame in going broke PF with KK, especially (as you have said before) if you have difficulty with post-flop play. You CANNOT put someone strictly on AA here given the stats.
 
S

switch0723

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I don't think i would shove either purely after looknig at the stack sizes. BB and yourself have effective stacks of >250 bb's, if my maths is correct. I don't think shoving is even in question since it would be a huge overbet which i cant see being paid off by anything except aces.

In the first scenario i 5-bet it up to about $30 then seriously consider folding to a shove from villain. This should keep the A-picture cards in, queens and maybe jacks

In the second hand, i flat call the all in and look to see a flop, don't know what i would do to a re shove by villain however. The reason i wouldnt raise this one again is that a re raise would have to be a shove, and i only see that being called by aces so its pointless
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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In the second hand, i flat call the all in and look to see a flop, don't know what i would do to a re shove by villain however. The reason i wouldnt raise this one again is that a re raise would have to be a shove, and i only see that being called by aces so its pointless


So you'd put in 40% of your stack and then fold to a raise?
 
zachvac

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in position, I might just see a flop.


I don't like this at all with kings. Preflop we're only worried about AA. So what happens on a flop that has all unders?

Now if:

1. You are prepared to fold to more aggression giving opponent credit for AA on an under board
or
2. You think this guy would fold to your shove and try to bluff at you with AK/QQ- UI

Then you can use this technique. Hopefully you're not saying see the flop to make sure there's not an ace and then put your money in if there's not. Because if they do have one ace, you're letting them have a smaller pot when you're ahead and if they have AA you're paying them off every time neither of you set anyways.
 
bob_tiger

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Firt scenario i would raise it to 45$ and second i would shove all in, here the guy with 50$ most likely has QQ or AK possible AQ suited and maybe 10s or Js dont see him pushing with anything else there.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I don't like this at all with kings. Preflop we're only worried about AA. So what happens on a flop that has all unders?

Now if:

1. You are prepared to fold to more aggression giving opponent credit for AA on an under board
or
2. You think this guy would fold to your shove and try to bluff at you with AK/QQ- UI

Then you can use this technique. Hopefully you're not saying see the flop to make sure there's not an ace and then put your money in if there's not. Because if they do have one ace, you're letting them have a smaller pot when you're ahead and if they have AA you're paying them off every time neither of you set anyways.

My "technique" is called playing post-flop poker. I really don't know wtf you're saying in the last sentence. I'll stand by my results though.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Skold does have a point and it was something I considered. If we 5-bet we likely push out a lot of worse hands that might get their money in on the flop, like JJ, TT, AK, bluffs etc. It's not because we're 'afraid' of an ace, it's because we want to induce more action from worse hands. A lot of the time if we 5-bet we push out all hands but AA.

I'm just really inexperienced with deep stacks but it looks like either way (smooth calling or 5-betting), we should be getting our money in.
 
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switch0723

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So you'd put in 40% of your stack and then fold to a raise?

I really don't know what i'd do, would probably end up calling on the basis we would be getting unbelievable odds and crush villains isolating shove range
 
Mehman

Mehman

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Both: Shove and prey, sure they will both show aces cause online poker is class at inducing action :p but still :p.

don't flame me :p.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Hand 1 - I'm not a fan of seeing a flop calling the 4bet, not deepstacked. It's certainly gonna tricky playing a flop containing a T,Q,J.
Hand 2 - insta call.
 
tenbob

tenbob

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Hand 1 - We are lovely and deep here, so we can 5-bet the BB to $30 or so and fold to a shove. Unless we have a very specific read that the BB is capable of doing this with QQ-JJ. Occasionally I will cold-call the 4 bet and hope to suck in that same QQ-JJ hand on a flop of undercards.

Hand 2 - Bah, calling is very tough here, because if we cold call we are in a bitch of a spot if the BB decides to come over the top of the dead money, so if we are perpared to call a shove from the bb once we call, then we are better off shoving pre-flop ourselves.
 
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