$50 NLHE Full Ring: Would you make a thin value bet on the river ?

Hujiko

Hujiko

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PokerStars - $0.50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 102.28 BB (VPIP: 25.64, PFR: 17.95, 3Bet Preflop: 13.33, hands: 39)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 15.90, PFR: 12.13, 3Bet Preflop: 5.46, Hands: 749)
BB: 43.88 BB (VPIP: 17.78, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 46)
UTG: 69 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
UTG+1: 325.96 BB (VPIP: 14.04, PFR: 9.65, 3Bet Preflop: 2.38, Hands: 115)
MP: 210.72 BB (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 10.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
MP+1: 145.36 BB (VPIP: 17.93, PFR: 13.47, 3Bet Preflop: 7.60, Hands: 1,107)
Hero (CO): 110.04 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:diamond: K:club:

fold, UTG+1 raises to 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 11.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 8.5 BB

Flop: (27.5 BB, 2 players) 4:diamond: 4:spade: 5:diamond:
MP checks, Hero bets 13.58 BB, MP calls 13.58 BB

Turn: (54.66 BB, 2 players) 2:diamond:
MP checks, Hero bets 19.5 BB, MP calls 19.5 BB

River: (93.66 BB, 2 players) 3:heart:
MP checks, Hero checks

[Spoil]
MP shows J:diamond: J:heart: (Two Pair, Jacks and Fours)
(Pre 18%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
Hero shows K:diamond: K:club: (Two Pair, Kings and Fours)
(Pre 82%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
Hero wins 89.66 BB
[/Spoil]

In hindsight I wonder if a thin value bet should have been made on this wet board (flush and straight draw) with KK. I was afraid of a straight with an A in it.
But what A could have played this way?

Think I should have made a thin value bet as his hand looks what it is an over pair.
On the other hand what can he call with as my Ax bluffs just rivered a straight.
 
TenJack

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Aright, size this up on the turn.

as for river, i check back as well. It is hard to call a bet without an Ace, he has some of them in his range, an ace can get to the river (especially a big one) because you can be barreling with a weaker one, maybe a smaller pair, that he has lots of equity against with a draw and 2 overs.

I think a thin value bet is rather pointless, just check this down. Super hard to get JJ, QQ to call. If we bet 30 BB as a thin value, he can c-raise with air as well because we would look rather weak (and we are at this point)
 
John A

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Yes... you need to bet river. Lots of value missed in this hand on every street.
 
TenJack

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Yes... you need to bet river. Lots of value missed in this hand on every street.


Do you have a reason for this? Seriously, there is four to a wheel straight on the board! I agree we missed value on the turn, but imo betting this river is stupid.

Round of applause to Huj for not turning a bluff catcher into a bluff itself. Because that is what we are doing. We take a hand with some showdown value and make it a bluff. Not a value bet at all.
 
B

braveslice

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Squeeze size feels wrong. Are you sure it’s right?

Btw I have never seen John to be wrong, just that it's sometimes hard to read why/what/when. Villain is passive caller right? If so the criticisms to sizing is easy to understand. Also if he is passive caller, the default line always is bet/fold, but I can't see why it's true here too. And if he is passive caller, he has multiple made flushes and even Ax (given small sizing) still in his range.
 
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A

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You just play 28 hands with this V.

Pre: I like this squeeze sizing. Someone like bigger sizing but when in position the 3-bet size could be smaller and your 3-bet range could be wider.

Flop: Feeling miss values here. Should bet heavier like 2/3 of the pot, since all the drawing hand and over pairs (77 - TT) will still call you.

Turn: The bet sizing looks wired to me...Are you betting for values to build up the pot? Will you play the same with your bluffing range?

River: Well let's say what you can beat here. You beat all the over pairs (let's say 77 - TT, JJ imo should be in the 3-bet or 4-bet range), you lost to all the flush trapping (QdJd, QdTd, JdTd, AdXd), the full house and straight which is not very likely (55, 66 since we don't know the calling range of the V), Notice that in his range he will not have AX without two diamond (all this hand should be folded on the flop bet). 67s should also fold preflop. If he has hands trapping you, probably he will check raise you on the flop or turn to get value. Yeah it is so scary to bet here but after analyzing his range I feel betting here is a long term +EV play.

Welcome more opinions.
 
TenJack

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If villain were to fold AK, AQ, AJ on a 445 flop, he basically fold most of the top end of his range. What is he then supposed to have in a 3-bet pot?? Fives full? Quad fours? If you think he is folding all non-flush draw AX combos you are simply mistaken. Villain also has good opportunities to float versus a weak 2nd barrel. He can also flat the turn with say, AdQx as he blocks the nut flush combo, has the nfd, and a wheel draw as well two overs that could be good if they pair up.

Assuming that he does fold all non-flush draw Ax, what does he call river with? All of his Ax combos according to this logic are flushed, (even if they weren’t they have the str8 to win) all of his trapping hands like 44, 55 are going to c-raise us and we have to fold. Any draw he could have had has hit. That basically only leaves us with overpairs that we beat. So 77-QQ, he 4-bets JJ, QQ probably, so 77-TT. So 24 TOTAL combos of hands we beat. Yikes. Do those hands call a river bet, even sized down?
 
John A

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Do you have a reason for this? Seriously, there is four to a wheel straight on the board! I agree we missed value on the turn, but imo betting this river is stupid.

Round of applause to Huj for not turning a bluff catcher into a bluff itself. Because that is what we are doing. We take a hand with some showdown value and make it a bluff. Not a value bet at all.

Friendly advice... don't quote and call other people's views / advice stupid. Just offer counter advice, or ask questions about their advice.

It's 100% a value bet, and really not super close honestly. Most of villains range is going to be 99+, and most of that range is calling a river bet. There's very few straight of flush draws here, and your opponent is likely passive. It's an ideal spot to squeeze value. OP has Kd, so that eliminates most of the flushes an opponent like this would have in his range (even though based on how it was played, there will almost never be any).
 
TenJack

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So what is our range in this spot? If we don't have an ace or a over-pair, we would have to be capable of bluffing 3 streets with K-high. So for, say, TT to realistically call we would have to be bluffing the river with K-high or 77-99 1/4 of the time.
Also, here is some math for people advocating for river bet here (this will be done assuming we go 1/3 pot for thin value) :

If we check and win, we get 46BB in profit

If we go for thin value and he folds we win 46 BB in profit
If we go for thin value and he calls we make around 76 BB
If we go for thin value, get called, and lose, we lose 76 BB
If we go for thin value and he check-raises, we fold and lose 76 BB, assuming he has the same hand (JJ)

SO....

46BB+76BB-76BB-76BB /4 = -7.5

We lose 7.5 BB every time we bet this river.
We loose 0 BB every time we check.


But john is right in the fact i was being a belligerent a--hole when i implied that what he said was stupid. I was out of line and i apologize. I will not do something so petty again.
 
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John A

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So what is our range in this spot? If we don't have an ace or a over-pair, we would have to be capable of bluffing 3 streets with K-high. So for, say, TT to realistically call we would have to be bluffing the river with K-high or 77-99 1/4 of the time.
Also, here is some math for people advocating for river bet here (this will be done assuming we go 1/3 pot for thin value) :

If we check and win, we get 46BB in profit

If we go for thin value and he folds we win 46 BB in profit
If we go for thin value and he calls we make around 76 BB
If we go for thin value, get called, and lose, we lose 76 BB
If we go for thin value and he check-raises, we fold and lose 76 BB, assuming he has the same hand (JJ)

SO....

46BB+76BB-76BB-76BB /4 = -7.5

We lose 7.5 BB every time we bet this river.
We loose 0 BB every time we check.


But john is right in the fact i was being a belligerent a--hole when i implied that what he said was stupid. I was out of line and i apologize. I will not do something so petty again.

Yeah, that's not how you do the math for this spot brother. And even if it were, you're not losing 76bbs if you bet and lose or get CR off your hand. You're losing what you bet only.

I tried to read your previous post above. Your range is assumption just isn't correct. You never want to get into a place in poker where you're saying your opponent doesn't have X because they didn't do Y. That's losing poker.

I explained my reasoning previously. You're allowed to disagree. :)
 
playinggameswithu

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No I would not. Though I agree with John's range estimate. I'v had too many players check raise me off hands and I'd be worried that would happend. This hand depends on how well you have taken notes on your opponent IMO just my opinion.
 
TenJack

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alright. So i guess the 46 BB we already put in the pot just doesn't count? Lol. :rolleyes: If you fold a winner, you loose the pot you would have won.

So, what do we have other than overpairs and aces, and sometimes a flush? Magic beans? I guess if we are loose we might 3-bet 55,44? I honestly don't think so even from the cutoff. Maybe we bet 2 streets with the non-nut backdoor diamonds that missed? (If we had the A high backdoor draw we have the str8...) :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Sure, we can't assume that villain won't 4-bet JJ or QQ. We also can't assume that villain doesn't have 7-2 offsuit. I agree with you there. :D

I would love to see the correct math here, old sport. Its pretty simple imo... average out the expected profit/loss from each option/outcome. If it is less than zero, dont do it. Sure, my way might not be the "GTO Math Award 2018" winner but it works and i can do it in my head at the table. :)
 
A

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Yeah, that's not how you do the math for this spot brother. And even if it were, you're not losing 76bbs if you bet and lose or get CR off your hand. You're losing what you bet only.

I tried to read your previous post above. Your range is assumption just isn't correct. You never want to get into a place in poker where you're saying your opponent doesn't have X because they didn't do Y. That's losing poker.

I explained my reasoning previously. You're allowed to disagree. :)


Pretty much want to listen to you John that how you will comment my reply for this hand. Is my range analysis correct and betting size correct in your opinion?
 
John A

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Pretty much want to listen to you John that how you will comment my reply for this hand. Is my range analysis correct and betting size correct in your opinion?

Yeah, your range is pretty close imho. 2 things.
1) Even though it's only 28 hands, this guy is probably a typical somewhat tighter full ring player. So his range to the river is going to be pretty transparent. A lot of these guys IF they did hit something big are betting the river. They aren't taking the chance that their opponent is checking behind, because it's FR, and players will too often.

2) It's full ring.

3) It's small stakes.

Hence... ranges get very transparent. When I assign a range, I'm never saying someone will always 4-bet QQ/JJ for example. Never get into thinking like that. Even if the exact opponent 4-bets QQ/JJ 95% of the time, you don't know if this is the 5% when they don't. You should discount some hands you think are unlikely to be in your opponents range, but don't complete remove them ever.

Assigning ranges isn't an exact science as you know. You don't need to enter every single draw for your opponent, just a few that make sense. The looser your opponent, the more we have of course. So just using this hand as an example, here's the value calling range of my opponent.

This hand driven to you directly from DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database
Board: 4d 5d 4s 2d 3h


Equity Win Tie Hand Range

33.9286% 32.1429% 1.7857% [ AA(50),AKs(100), ADQD(100), ADKC(100), ADKH(100), ADKS(100), TT-KK(100), 9D8D(100) ]

66.0714% 64.2857% 1.7857% [ KdKc ]

Notice I have AA in there, as well as a couple of made hand flushes. Since this opponent is in MP and called an UTG open, we should be removing a lot of suited connectors, that's why I only have one listed. It's also a 3-bet pot, so we have 4 factors that indicate our opponent will likely have a tighter range here. 1) They already have somewhat tight stats (small sample), 2) they called an UTG open. 3) It's full ring 4) it's a 3-bet pot.

Likely range our opponent will have by river:

This hand driven to you directly from DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database
Board: 4d 5d 4s 2d 3h


Equity Win Tie Hand Range

41.3462% 40.3846% 0.9615% [ AA(50),AKs(100), ADQD(100), ADKC(100), ADKH(100), ADKS(100), 88-KK(100), AQo(100), JDTD(100) ]

58.6538% 57.6923% 0.9615% [ KdKc ]

It's a clear river value bet.

Look how many draws I'd need to add to say it's not a river value bet.

This hand driven to you directly from DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database
Board: 4d 5d 4s 2d 3h


Equity Win Tie Hand Range

51.9608% 50.9804% 0.9804% [ AA(50),AKs(100), ADQD(100), ADJD(100), ADKC(100), ADKH(100), ADKS(100), 99-KK(100), KDQD(100), AQo(100), QDJD(100), JDTD(100), TD9D(100), 9D8D(100), 8D7D(100) ]

48.0392% 47.0588% 0.9804% [ KdKc ]

It's just not realistic.

If you want to really crush these stakes, then you need to be betting every time you have a clear VB that can be called be a worse range.
 
D

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John, TenJack: You both need to shut up. Stop arguing, you are making yourself sound stupid. Seriusly. Both of you.:D:D:DQuit being so butt-hurt.
As for the actual hand, I think I have to side with TenJack here. I think it is wishful thinking to bet hoping that villain has 99-QQ (maybe 77, 88 sometimes I guess? I don’t think so but maybe.) Think about it: Only 24 combos will pay off your river bet. I don’t think hero needs to be risking his money on that. Like TJ said, villain probably (and note john, he did say probably, not never, that villain would 4 bet JJ and QQ! If your going to be dissing on him, at least get it right!) raises with JJ,QQ pre, and probably on the flop as well.

So he really either has a weaker overpair, or we are beat. Not a great spot. I think he can have a lot of flush, str8 combos in this spot, just because I agree with TJ, he can certainly peel with something like AQ or AJ, then a passive caller type can easily call a turn bet as it is very small and he is getting about as good odds as you will ever get when drawing to a gutter.
Just check this down, and if he shows you one of those combos, then so be it, we miss out on 30ish BB. But I think we will get shown more srt8s and flushes than overpairs here, especially if he is passive, he will be nervous about a lot of river action because hero (in his mind, but based on ranges probably not) could have a boat.
This is not a clear value spot at all. Only 30ish combos we beat at most? Versus all of the Ax, all of the XdXd combos.

**Also this is my first post, is this the right spot to post in for cash game stuff? I think so but I just made an account J
 
Sil3ntness

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I would say 3B at least 12 BBs preflop for the squeeze play here. Bet bigger on the flop maybe 2/3 pot minimum, bet somewhere around 2/3 again on the turn and I wouldn't mind a bet or check back on the river.

Definitely feel you could of got more value though preflop, flop, & turn though. Not so sure if worse would call you on the river though unless they are extra sticky/calling station.
 
John A

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John, TenJack: You both need to shut up. Stop arguing, you are making yourself sound stupid. Seriusly. Both of you.:D:D:DQuit being so butt-hurt.
As for the actual hand, I think I have to side with TenJack here. I think it is wishful thinking to bet hoping that villain has 99-QQ (maybe 77, 88 sometimes I guess? I don’t think so but maybe.) Think about it: Only 24 combos will pay off your river bet. I don’t think hero needs to be risking his money on that. Like TJ said, villain probably (and note john, he did say probably, not never, that villain would 4 bet JJ and QQ! If your going to be dissing on him, at least get it right!) raises with JJ,QQ pre, and probably on the flop as well.

So he really either has a weaker overpair, or we are beat. Not a great spot. I think he can have a lot of flush, str8 combos in this spot, just because I agree with TJ, he can certainly peel with something like AQ or AJ, then a passive caller type can easily call a turn bet as it is very small and he is getting about as good odds as you will ever get when drawing to a gutter.
Just check this down, and if he shows you one of those combos, then so be it, we miss out on 30ish BB. But I think we will get shown more srt8s and flushes than overpairs here, especially if he is passive, he will be nervous about a lot of river action because hero (in his mind, but based on ranges probably not) could have a boat.
This is not a clear value spot at all. Only 30ish combos we beat at most? Versus all of the Ax, all of the XdXd combos.

**Also this is my first post, is this the right spot to post in for cash game stuff? I think so but I just made an account J

?? I'm butt hurt and arguing? lol ok. Good first post.

This is for everyone... don't quote or call people out in poker forums. It's pointless. Just offer your advice and ask questions. Don't get your ego involved. It's for children.

Secondly this is a range and math issue. Look, if two of you say, he will only have 24 worse combos that he can call with, and personally I think with the correct sizing it's more like 30, but let's just say 24. Then find me 25 that he's beat with... it's that simple. I posted my ranges above. To get to 25 combos, this is what you'd need to have in a full ring players range in this spot.

98d-TJd, AJs+, Ad7o+.

This is not a realistic range for this spot. I'm sorry. You're allowed to disagree, but do it respectfully w/ your fellow CC members please.

This is his most likely range that has OP beat:
AdQo+, AJs+, AA, T9s-TJs.

That's 14 combos

Range that opponent will call a 1/3rd bet to on the river:
99-KK

That's 27 combos. And personally I'd put 88 in there also based on the flop and turn sizing, which would make it 30 combos.

This is just a simple math problem. It's ~ 2:1 on the river, which is a CLEAR value bet.

I'm done though trying to explain this.
 
TenJack

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Silentness brings up a good point. Your whole argument hinges on the fact that villain is going to call with 88-QQ. Why would he do that?

If we think about this from Vs point of view, what do we see?

Hero 3-bets pre, so V give him probably A2-A5, ATs+ AJo+ 66+ KJs+ KQo

Continues on flop, he can do that really with any of those hands versus a check.

Turn is wacky, hero bets some funny little amount that could be anything, so his range hasn't changed at all.

River pretty much all of that range has JJ beat. only the Kxxx bluff hands and 77-TT are loosing. so from villains point of view we have maybe 24 combos he beats vs a hge number of hands that beat him.



And on a final note, you can have it. Honestly, i surrender. There was no need to get so upset over 30BB. I regret ever commenting on this hand, and i regret also that i probably did let my ego slip through.:eek::eek:I still think i am right, but i am willing to let you have your moment. I apologize to you, john, and you, Hujiko, for turning this thread into a big argument.

**I am trying reeeeaaaallllyyy hard to be nice right now and not go right back at it. Please don't post something that is going to make me angry. if you want to dispute my ranges for hero, you can, just please be respectful of my opinion, too.:)
 
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John A

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Silentness brings up a good point. Your whole argument hinges on the fact that villain is going to call with 88-QQ. Why would he do that?

If we think about this from Vs point of view, what do we see?

Hero 3-bets pre, so V give him probably A2-A5, ATs+ AJo+ 66+ KJs+ KQo

Continues on flop, he can do that really with any of those hands versus a check.

Turn is wacky, hero bets some funny little amount that could be anything, so his range hasn't changed at all.

River pretty much all of that range has JJ beat. only the Kxxx bluff hands and 77-TT are loosing. so from villains point of view we have maybe 24 combos he beats vs a hge number of hands that beat him.



And on a final note, you can have it. Honestly, i surrender. There was no need to get so upset over 30BB. I regret ever commenting on this hand, and i regret also that i probably did let my ego slip through.:eek::eek:I still think i am right, but i am willing to let you have your moment. I apologize to you, john, and you, Hujiko, for turning this thread into a big argument.

**I am trying reeeeaaaallllyyy hard to be nice right now and not go right back at it. Please don't post something that is going to make me angry. if you want to dispute my ranges for hero, you can, just please be respectful of my opinion, too.:)

It's interesting how two people's perception of the same thing can be so vastly different. I really don't give two *bleeps* what your view of the hand is. But your attitude is all wrong for improving or learning in this format.

I only stated from the start, that it's not SMART to quote people and insult them. On any poker forum. Just post your advice. And it's perfectly fine to have disagreements with people about hands / ranges, just do it in a respectful manner.

I'm designated to offer advice on cardschat because people have known my results over the years. So that's what I do from time to time. I explain my ranges and reasoning, and try to help players get better (which I've helped hundreds on this forum, in sweat groups and forum exchanges).

Now all the childish ego BS aside, you're saying you think that a 17/10 player at 50nl, is calling an UTG+1 open in MP1 with A2-A5, KJs, ATs, AJo, etc.. and then they are calling a 3-bet w/ that same range of hands. Yet, they will call w/ this range, but they won't call an open w/ QQ and JJ (even though they actually did because we know the result), and won't flat a 3-bet w/ that range. I'm here to tell you, this is EXTREMELY common to occur. People at full ring often flat early opens w/ 99+.

Just take a poll on here w/ players that are at a similar stake level and ask them if that seems correct at these stakes. Maybe you might learn something, which I assume is the goal of posting and talking about hands correct?
 
TenJack

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I think your post above should tell everybody who views this thread everything they need to know about your character, John. I have had the decency to apologize twice. I specifically asked you to please not make another post that would be upsetting/degrading, and also asked that you respect my opinion. You still proceeded to say that all of my opinions were not worth two "bleeps" to you, criticize my attitude, repeat something you have already said, and then tell me why you are qualified to do so.
 
John A

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I think your post above should tell everybody who views this thread everything they need to know about your character, John. I have had the decency to apologize twice. I specifically asked you to please not make another post that would be upsetting/degrading, and also asked that you respect my opinion. You still proceeded to say that all of my opinions were not worth two "bleeps" to you, criticize my attitude, repeat something you have already said, and then tell me why you are qualified to do so.

I sincerely hope you hear this...

1) I've been nothing but respectful to you from the very first post, despite how you've conducted yourself.

2) You've been rude, childish, disrespectful, and now trying to attack my character... over a disagreement about a hand range.

3) Now you've added controlling. You offered more opinions, and instructed me not to respond. How dare I respond. Sorry buddy, but you don't control who does what.

4) This whole thread has been about not being wrong, rather than learning.

You for some reason thought quoting someone else's advice, and going on a rant about it being stupid, would somehow be productive... and that's where this comes from. I guess you sort of apologized... accepted.

I've tried continuously to bring it back to discussing the hand to no avail.

Let's just be adults, and move on. I still think if there's this much energy and disagreement about a spot like this, that you, or someone should discuss it. But just don't make it personal w/ anyone. It's really not that hard. If someone says advice or offers a range you disagree with, in the future, just ask them how they got there. Say, "hey, I think X player in this spot will only have a range of this... why do you have Y range?"

I know several CC members now, very good players, who won't even post on here anymore because of people making it too personal and being disrespectful. I don't think that's going to conducive to a learning environment.

And yes, by my last post I got frustrated because I was trying to keep it about the hand the entire time. So I apologize about about my not caring. Let's just move on.
 
Figaroo2

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FWIW
Firstly I note UTG is 14/9 overall, this means he is going to be very tight opening here so MP will be flat calling QQ and JJ here a lot as UTG is so squeaky. I'm only ever 3betting him with AA and KK and 1 bluff like A5s.
MP is also 17/10 so he likes to call preflop in position rather than 3bet generally, I play off those similar stats. I'd basically never 3bet the UTG here from MP anyway as its going to look like AA KK all day but 3 betting from the CO s a squueeze is fine.
I squeeze slightly bigger pre, I'd expect both of these players to call and was a little suprised UTG folded but it shows that maybe he opened something weaker because he felt he hadn't played in a while and doesn't want to be a total rock, sometimes guys like this open 45s just for a change. ( I do)
That sort of thing is also why you can't be so static in assigning 3bet calling ranges these days. At 100nl and 50nl online most people now just continue on to call their near full initial calling ranges, no one is folding to 3bets and small squeezes these days. Some players are so aggro generally in 3bet pots that if you can connect you generally stack them.

So flop I'm betting 2/3 pot minimum, there are so many over pairs that will call, so betting less than half pot isn't in my playbook in this hand.
Turn sizing I don't mind, overpairs are still calling a big bet on this turn, as is the Ad, if he has it, so you can scale up.
River is a bet fold for me I'd go around 55% pot, but I can totally understand why you checked it down in play. He should be pair heavy here with only a few flush draws and the odd Ace of diamonds and I support John's ranges.
(I beat 50nl FR at 7bb/100 online, over the last 2 years on 888)
 
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TenJack

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Two comments i will make and I am going to just let this whole thing go:

I did not tell you not to respond. I just asked you not to respond in a way that would be viewed by myself/others as unnecessary or unkind. Please do't think i was trying to deny you the right to post something within the guidelines of moral acceptability. I just didn't want this to escalate further, which it unfourtanatley did.

As for the post where i put some ranges, this is what i said, i think it got confused//misread

Hero 3-bets pre, so V give him probably A2-A5, ATs+ AJo+ 66+ KJs+ KQo



That is what i think Hero's preflop range is. Not villains. Now, this is what I would 3-bet at 2k. This might be completely wrong for nl50. I have honestly never played these stakes so this might be a bad way to go about it.

Thats all I have to say. I am not even going to dispute anything you said in your last post just because i think it is in the best interests of both parties to just let this dog lie.
 
John A

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Two comments i will make and I am going to just let this whole thing go:

I did not tell you not to respond. I just asked you not to respond in a way that would be viewed by myself/others as unnecessary or unkind. Please do't think i was trying to deny you the right to post something within the guidelines of moral acceptability. I just didn't want this to escalate further, which it unfourtanatley did.

As for the post where i put some ranges, this is what i said, i think it got confused//misread

Hero 3-bets pre, so V give him probably A2-A5, ATs+ AJo+ 66+ KJs+ KQo



That is what i think Hero's preflop range is. Not villains. Now, this is what I would 3-bet at 2k. This might be completely wrong for nl50. I have honestly never played these stakes so this might be a bad way to go about it.

Thats all I have to say. I am not even going to dispute anything you said in your last post just because i think it is in the best interests of both parties to just let this dog lie.

No worries man... it's all good. I sincerely don't hold on to BS like this. If this was the tone of the previous posts, we never would have wasted the time we did.

I think if that's Hero's perceived 3-bet range, it's probably a little bit loose for FR when there's an UTG open and an MP1 call. It's not that far off though. I think your main dispute / issue is what is MP's then 3-bet calling range, and what hands will they get to the river with and pay off. You never really offered a clear range here, you just said you're beat by all the draws and Ax's, and only 99-TT will pay you off (then you changed this a few times). I think if you clearly articulated that for yourself, you might have a different view about this hand.

2k live is pretty similar to 50nl/100nl online. It depends where you're playing, but you're not far off on your ranges.
 
TenJack

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Ok thanks! I feel embarrassed that i made such a big deal out of what should have been resolved by better communication. :eek:

I do tend to 3-bet a bit more loosely. I think that villain should probably hold on to most of his upper-mid pairs, like 77, maybe 88 (depending on tendencies most likely). Most of his big aces (AQo+ and AQs+)should call. I would honestly expect to see aces 4-bet. I guess we can also say that he can have some stuff like KQs, but i think he dumps that before the river.

On the flop i guess a big question is what he is going to do with his over-pairs. Do you think villain should lead88+?Ifeel like that would be appropriate on a flop that really doesn't catch any of hero's range... especially if we cut out some of the smaller Ax combos like A2,A3 that we don't have as often/at all.

On the flop, if we had a solid read that villain is going to bet his overpairs every time I think our Line is pretty clear. Without that read, we probably can maybe throw in a bet on this river.
 
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