G
gustav197poker
Legend
Bronze Level
Agree with 4-bet. But I would do it in a larger size. The reason is our starting position and our perceived rank. The opening of EP denotes a closed range for which, we must compensate for our range disadvantage.
When I see this flop setup I am pushing my stack at a high frequency. The reason is that the texture has a super strong impact on our range. My goal is to exert maximum pressure on all average values. When we 4bet with a medium strength combo like A5s, we are praying for a flop that hits our hand, and this texture really achieves this effect. If Villain is an aggressive player, we have another good reason to protect now our range preflop.
Greetings.
When I see this flop setup I am pushing my stack at a high frequency. The reason is that the texture has a super strong impact on our range. My goal is to exert maximum pressure on all average values. When we 4bet with a medium strength combo like A5s, we are praying for a flop that hits our hand, and this texture really achieves this effect. If Villain is an aggressive player, we have another good reason to protect now our range preflop.
Greetings.
3
300HPGOD
Legend
Platinum Level
With a hand like A5 suited you are 4 betting to get folds and not to play post flop. When you get called you are now in a huge pot out of position with a hand that you could hit top pair and not know where you stand. I personally would not 4 bet there but if you are going to I think you need to go bigger as we want folds here. You also have to factor in the 3 bet frequency of the the CO which I did not see (this hand was hard to follow, try to use the replayer if possible). If they are not 3 betting much then they will not fold much and you will be 4 betting into a hand that is stronger than yours and you will be out of position. Luckily the 3 bettor folds.
On the flop I like making a bet here as I want to continue to add to the story that I am extremely strong here. I also dont want to just give a free card to two hearts that villain could have. I still think my hand is worse here even against the initial raiser so I will mostly likely need to win this hand by not going to showdown but making the villain fold somewhere along the line.
You said in your writing that the A of hearts was a good turn card and I disagree. I think the ace is not good for us. It gives us a pair but we could be going against Ax here as well that has a better kicker and also hearts got there. As played I think you should be betting here to stay in control of the pot however I am not liking things if we are raised and my bet also folds out the KK and QQ hands which I dont love either but at this point I just want to win this hand and get out of this. Maybe that is wrong but that is just how I think of things and here we are in this big pot with a hand we cant gauge well against our opponents hands. I am folding to a raise here if it should happen.
The river is another instance where you say it is a great card for us and I disagree. It is a good card because now we beat Ax but any hand with a heart here beats us and I dont see villain having too many if any hands with a 7 or less in them so if they have a heart they arent folding here. You check here which I am ok with but I think non heart hands that are Ax that we now beat will check behind. Any heart will bet that you will have a decision to make. I like betting small here as a blocker bet where I am folding to a raise. I like betting small since Ax that we beat will make a crying call and hands that beat us raise where we can fold but that bet fold line is cheaper than checking and then facing a half pot bet where we have a tough decision to make.
On the flop I like making a bet here as I want to continue to add to the story that I am extremely strong here. I also dont want to just give a free card to two hearts that villain could have. I still think my hand is worse here even against the initial raiser so I will mostly likely need to win this hand by not going to showdown but making the villain fold somewhere along the line.
You said in your writing that the A of hearts was a good turn card and I disagree. I think the ace is not good for us. It gives us a pair but we could be going against Ax here as well that has a better kicker and also hearts got there. As played I think you should be betting here to stay in control of the pot however I am not liking things if we are raised and my bet also folds out the KK and QQ hands which I dont love either but at this point I just want to win this hand and get out of this. Maybe that is wrong but that is just how I think of things and here we are in this big pot with a hand we cant gauge well against our opponents hands. I am folding to a raise here if it should happen.
The river is another instance where you say it is a great card for us and I disagree. It is a good card because now we beat Ax but any hand with a heart here beats us and I dont see villain having too many if any hands with a 7 or less in them so if they have a heart they arent folding here. You check here which I am ok with but I think non heart hands that are Ax that we now beat will check behind. Any heart will bet that you will have a decision to make. I like betting small here as a blocker bet where I am folding to a raise. I like betting small since Ax that we beat will make a crying call and hands that beat us raise where we can fold but that bet fold line is cheaper than checking and then facing a half pot bet where we have a tough decision to make.
A
Angrypig
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Thank you for your comment, pot size 3/4bet is my standard from any position.
I gave him range KK+ he is not folding no matter what size you cbet. even if i add AKs i dont think he does have enough folds in range btw AKs doesn't have implied odd to call.
once again thank you for your feedback.
A
Angrypig
Rising Star
Bronze Level
hi and thank you for your comment...
first of all, what replayer would you recommend?
sizing...1pot size is my standard. what would be yours 4bet range here?
this flop i 100% check i gave him range KK+ he doesn't have anything to fold no matter what size i cbet, if i add AKs still not enough folds. btw AKs doesn't have Implied odds to call PF
so now on the turn Ace is good card, he has only one combo off AA to beat my top pair.
yes i know people will call much worst then KK+ but when i do my work away from table im trying put myself into each position and learn something. in this situation a have learned to fold AKs not because AK is bad hand or my opponent is more lucky, just because i don't have an implied odds
river... i didn't say is good card.
once again, thank you very much for your feedback.
3
300HPGOD
Legend
Platinum Level
My 4 bet range is dependent on how much villain 3 bets (I know he is not the one who calls but that is what I am basing it on). The more they 3 bet, the more they could fold but however in general I dont 4 bet bluff much since 3 bet bluffs are usually more rare than you think however you ran into one here in this hand. I like betting on the flop not so much because I expect a fold on the flop but it may make getting a fold in the hand later on easier. Easier for the villain to call 2 bets in the hand rather than 3 or 1 bet rather than 2. Not arguing too much about it but I think you are discounting a little too much that villain could have an Ax hand. You mention KK a lot with other big pairs being along with that KK but I think AQ and depending on opponent some might call with AJ suited type hands. I say go bigger on the 4 bet sizing instead of using your "standard" sizing as 4 bets will be either for value or in this case a bluff. You wont be 4 betting enough against one opponent to have to worry about balance. When 4 betting you should be sizing it based on what you want to have happen and in this case it should be trying to get both villains to fold.
The replayer to use it attached above in the cash game analysis section under the threads that are sticky'd to the top.
azforlife
Legend
Bronze Level
I can't say I've seen a better detailed hand history on here, so thanks a lot for that read!
I think you played it prob as I would've, wouldn't change much except for maybe the river bet since we're losing to any flush & folding to a 3 bet or ship, so 15% on river?
Keep em comin!
I think you played it prob as I would've, wouldn't change much except for maybe the river bet since we're losing to any flush & folding to a 3 bet or ship, so 15% on river?
Keep em comin!
C
c0rnBr34d
Visionary
Silver Level
Pre:
If we had opened and got 3B then I'm on board with the 4B here but I'm not a fan of bluffing into two strong and uncapped ranges here from OOP. Especially when it's an UTG open and a CO 3B regardless of the small sizing. I'll also add that when the "Reads" sections starts with "not much" it's hard for me to come up with a compelling reason to steal here. I can't imagine bluffing OOP here being long term profitable unless one or both of those Vs have leaks in their game which you have not noticed per the reads. With your reads I would fold pre here and not think much about it.
Second point. How are you coming up with these ranges? Do you have a HUD? Is this all just gut estimation? It seems to contradict the earlier statement that you are sure that EP can't have AK or any Ax here other than AA and never flats QQ, our image probably also plays into the range construction here. If V knows we are the type of player that has 4B bluffs into 2 uncapped ranges then QQ should be a fine call. I'll also point out that your read is very confident that V has a 0% 5B range with KK+. This seems off. At least a couple of those combos will want to 5B pre right? So is it then fair to count them all at showdown?
Flop:
As played I think our 4B range should be cbetting extremely frequently for a small sizing. Sure we can have a few checks but this certainly isn't one of them. How often do we x KK+ here? Maybe AhAx can check (which we can't have since the turn is Ah) but otherwise just bet for value. Likewise, I think we have to bet with our bluffs the same way then eval turn otherwise we wont win often enough with our pre flop bluff range. Again, I think we are perhaps a bit too sure of our range reading.
Turn:
Had we bet flop we picked up some show down value and would be in a spot where we can jam or x/c. V shouldn't have many if any flushes here in a 4B pot where he flats with action behind but neither should we. We can charge large hearts and put KK, QQ in a tough spot, we still have equity to make 2 pair or a wheel so I prefer a jam here had we cbet small. As played I like the bet for the same reasons. Sizing up will tend to fold out the hands we want to continue.
River:
I agree with the x and for this sizing, getting 5 to 1 I think it's an auto call for me as aside from the range you've provided V also probably has some AK that thinks it's good or some other spaz that may have to bet to win and is taking advantage of our very scared looking x/small bet/x line. Even if your ranges were correct then we should auto call since we would then lose to 4 combos and win vs 3 combos (43% ish win at showdown) when we only really need to be good 17% of the time to be profitable.
If we had opened and got 3B then I'm on board with the 4B here but I'm not a fan of bluffing into two strong and uncapped ranges here from OOP. Especially when it's an UTG open and a CO 3B regardless of the small sizing. I'll also add that when the "Reads" sections starts with "not much" it's hard for me to come up with a compelling reason to steal here. I can't imagine bluffing OOP here being long term profitable unless one or both of those Vs have leaks in their game which you have not noticed per the reads. With your reads I would fold pre here and not think much about it.
Second point. How are you coming up with these ranges? Do you have a HUD? Is this all just gut estimation? It seems to contradict the earlier statement that you are sure that EP can't have AK or any Ax here other than AA and never flats QQ, our image probably also plays into the range construction here. If V knows we are the type of player that has 4B bluffs into 2 uncapped ranges then QQ should be a fine call. I'll also point out that your read is very confident that V has a 0% 5B range with KK+. This seems off. At least a couple of those combos will want to 5B pre right? So is it then fair to count them all at showdown?
Flop:
As played I think our 4B range should be cbetting extremely frequently for a small sizing. Sure we can have a few checks but this certainly isn't one of them. How often do we x KK+ here? Maybe AhAx can check (which we can't have since the turn is Ah) but otherwise just bet for value. Likewise, I think we have to bet with our bluffs the same way then eval turn otherwise we wont win often enough with our pre flop bluff range. Again, I think we are perhaps a bit too sure of our range reading.
Turn:
Had we bet flop we picked up some show down value and would be in a spot where we can jam or x/c. V shouldn't have many if any flushes here in a 4B pot where he flats with action behind but neither should we. We can charge large hearts and put KK, QQ in a tough spot, we still have equity to make 2 pair or a wheel so I prefer a jam here had we cbet small. As played I like the bet for the same reasons. Sizing up will tend to fold out the hands we want to continue.
River:
I agree with the x and for this sizing, getting 5 to 1 I think it's an auto call for me as aside from the range you've provided V also probably has some AK that thinks it's good or some other spaz that may have to bet to win and is taking advantage of our very scared looking x/small bet/x line. Even if your ranges were correct then we should auto call since we would then lose to 4 combos and win vs 3 combos (43% ish win at showdown) when we only really need to be good 17% of the time to be profitable.