$50 NLHE 6-max: Do we bluff this river

[Alucard]

pokerstars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 48.5 BB
SB: 226 BB
Hero (BB): 100.5 BB
UTG: 132.5 BB
MP: 231 BB
CO: 250 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Jh 8h
UTG calls 1 BB, fold, CO raises to 2.5 BB, fold, SB calls 2 BB, Hero calls 1.5 BB, UTG calls 1.5 BB

Flop : (10 BB, 4 players) Td 7d 5h
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets 1 BB, CO calls 1 BB, SB raises to 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, fold, CO calls 3 BB

Turn : (23 BB, 3 players) 4s
SB bets 15 BB, Hero calls 15 BB, fold

River : (53 BB, 2 players) 2h
SB checks, Hero checks


SB is a fish. A bit unknown but a VPIP over 50. A T is very likely in his range but could be soome missed FDs & SDs as well.
I think we should bluff every diamond river vs the general player when checked to & here I think it's right to give up this one vs a fish

 

[Sidetracked]

On this hand, I think the time to fold is on the turn. Neither your express, nor your implied odds, warrants a call with your gutshot.

 

[gustav197poker]

This hand had a very big change from the beginning to the end. At the beginning I find the call preflop attractive, considering that the offer is approximately 4: 1 and our hand is in 50% of all possible preflop combinations. So this call is really balanced. That is, you are at a point where the ev of fold vs call is very similar, so taking into account your balance, you do not lose anything important at this time with any of these decisions.
In the flop a multi-way boat clearly does not help you. Also now your hand becomes a bluff blocker. Therefore, the probability of placing valuable hands in the ranks of the villains increases. I think you got too involved in this place. Personally I think I would have retired in this flop. Your reasoning can be excellent for seizing opportunities, where you can isolate yourself with fewer people.
A bluff on this river can be beneficial against a tighter player, where you can expect a high fold equity in this type of places. But against other players, I don't think you can get much value in these cases.
Regards.

 

[Alucard]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. On the flop we have a gutter+BDFD & SB raise is only 1/3 pot so easy call. On turn we have a double gutter vs a 50vpip fish who'd pay out with tp bad kicker or a mid p

 

[gustav197poker]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. On the flop we have a gutter+BDFD & SB raise is only 1/3 pot so easy call. On turn we have a double gutter vs a 50vpip fish who'd pay out with tp bad kicker or a mid p

Okay, but there are still 2 players left to speak and your bdfd is compensated by a line of diamonds color with more probability. Without direct value blockers and accumulating a neutral calls that can impact above your range.
I am giving an opinion on this flop.

 

[Alucard]

Okay, but there are still 2 players left to speak and your bdfd is compensated by a line of diamonds color with more probability. Without direct value blockers and accumulating a neutral calls that can impact above your range.
I am giving an opinion on this flop.

Everyone in the pot are passive stationy players. We have backdoor hearts+a gutter.

When the UTG min bet & the other player just flat, we can easily assume they are just floating with garbage. (mid p, small pp,Ax etc)
When the SB raises we have assume he has a tp/set/2p/OE or a FD.
But his size is way too small to consider folding. If it were a 75%+ pot size bet we can fold.
Even if there were aggressive villains behind the way the hand was played makes this flop an easy call.

IMO this is a 100% call on flop the way the hand was played. I may be wrong ofc.

 

[gustav197poker]

Everyone in the pot are passive stationy players. We have backdoor hearts+a gutter.

When the UTG min bet & the other player just flat, we can easily assume they are just floating with garbage. (mid p, small pp,Ax etc)
When the SB raises we have assume he has a tp/set/2p/OE or a FD.
But his size is way too small to consider folding. If it were a 75%+ pot size bet we can fold.
Even if there were aggressive villains behind the way the hand was played makes this flop an easy call.

IMO this is a 100% call on flop the way the hand was played. I may be wrong ofc.

I do not agree in this case, since having several players is likely to have more than one discount. Or maybe we are dominated in our same bdfd, since we have a big margin that is unprotected. But I respect your opinion.

 

[Sidetracked]

Everyone in the pot are passive stationy players. We have backdoor hearts+a gutter.

When the UTG min bet & the other player just flat, we can easily assume they are just floating with garbage. (mid p, small pp,Ax etc)
When the SB raises we have assume he has a tp/set/2p/OE or a FD.
But his size is way too small to consider folding. If it were a 75%+ pot size bet we can fold.
Even if there were aggressive villains behind the way the hand was played makes this flop an easy call.

IMO this is a 100% call on flop the way the hand was played. I may be wrong ofc.

I'm saying that your flop call was OK with the backdoors. Yes, the turn makes you double gutted, but think about what the board would look like if you made the bottom straight. If you KNOW that villain WILL pay you off, even on a 4 to a straight board with worse, then more power to you.

 

[dorynel7]

In this situation i think the best choice is fold on the turn.

 

[gustav197poker]

I know that the vast majority of players will not agree with me. Withdrawing with 25% of the boat is unprofitable (it's true what they say)
But I want to explain a little why I would do this. First, the original raiser opens at 2.5 bb from the co. What do we know about this player? From that position you can open narrow ranges and also wider ranges (as it seems to have happened).
Then we have utg who comes forward and makes an insignificant bet. Why would I do that in a boat of 4 active players? The original raiser call and then sb increases to 4bb (also a small size from the blind). Why do they use small sizes? I think there is a clear trend towards value bets, only moderating the size too down, according to my taste.
While prices are cheap, I think the general sequence is applied in the same way, as if it were larger magnification sizes. Minimally we can say that in the flop, there was a great imbalance in the structure of original bets. And our range could now improve with a 9 (3 outs) a J (which would have a low kicker protection) or a heart street (which would improve our equity, but with so many players in hand, it is possible that someone is blocking our line of heart).
That is, our chances of improving post flop would be clearly reduced, if we decide to continue towards the turn. In this particular case, the board favors us on the turn with a double gutshot (6 total outs), but this will not always happen and the reality is that even then, we will face mainly hands for value or combinations that will have more equity than us, in a boat multi-way.

 

[Aballinamion]

Bluffing fishes out of position?

Hello Alucard how are you doing? Thank you for sharing your hand with us.

Now, you have posted in the title that is 50 NLHE and then in the hand description it is 2 NLHE, which one is the correct limit because this changes a lot our decision-making process.

Second you told yourself that the SB is a Fish and by my reading he was the player who gave action to the hand.

What I have to say is plain and simple:

A) I don't like playing out of position.
B) I don't like too much calling from SB and BB
C) I don't like to try to bluff Fishes

Why?

A) Playing out of position is bad because our range equity will not realize that much, and we will be forced to fold a ton of Flops/Turns and Rivers. When we call we are losing a lot of times and either waiting to hit the board strong or to bluff the player in position strongly. When neither of these things happen we must make a pact with Mephisthofeles in order to preserve our Winrate.

B) I like to call from the BB when I have amazing odds, for example it comes a mini raise from MP, Co folds, BTN calls, SB calls, now I have to pay 1 blind for a pot of 6 or 8 Blinds, correct me if I am wrong sometimes my math is horrible. When it comes to 2.5x or 3x or even bigger raises as we see players raising 4x, 4.5x from EP, I elect to either 3bet/Squeeze or Fold, mostly because the rake does not allow us to call a reasonable range of hands from SB and BB.

C) How is it ever possible to bluff a fish? I am meaning, I believe one of the greatest flaws in my game during months was try to bluff players who don't understand anything about the game.
How can I bluff somebody who just take a look at his/her hand and decides to Call, Raise or Shove?
I assume to myself that is impossible to bluff Level 0 players, which means guys who look at their hands and make decisions based on it. Or even the player who is Level 1, who look at his hand and thinks about us: "I believe my opponent has AA. Or I guess he has a Jack. I am quite sure he has a Flush Draw. No, no, I am sure he has Gutter", and so goes this Level 1 of thinking.
It is not everytime, but most of times that a Passive Fish decides to be Aggressive, it is a value, and when I say value I mean anything at all the guy could have and decided to go regardless of the Villain he/she is facing at, regardless of the board texture, regardless of the pot odds...
I like to bluff Regulars, and Tight players or at least somebody that can read the plays I make.
Again, when I started calling Preflop, Calling the Flop, Calling the Turn, either I am planning to Float a person who is very hard to bluff because he/she will never leave anything it hits, or I am trying to put up some miracle and hit the nuts after the River.. (just kidding).
I elect to make easy, simple bluffs and cheap bluffs versus Fishes and I elect to do it when I am in position which makes more easy to pass my bluffs, and if not I always will have some equity behind, just in case.
Let me know your thoughts about it.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Semi grunch but I really don't like a river bluff here. Pre is fine to me. Fold flop, fold turn, check river. Flop you are saying Vs are passive fish yet there is a bet and raise in front of you and the flop bettor can still 3 bet if you call. It's just too thin in my opinion to chase a gut shot even with the back door draw and hope the 1 BB bet wasn't meant to induce a raise so that they could then 3 bet. On the turn we have a double gutter but all of our outs aren't clean. If we hit a straight and the diamond comes we could get cooked. So with 6 clean outs calling larger than 1/2 pot from a passive fish that probably wont pay us off if we hit seems like a bad plan. Now that we missed what are we repping with our bluff? What hand plays this way when there are so many straight and diamond flush draws the whole way? A passive V could check back a strong top pair or even 2 pair hand here that can check / call river. The only way this works is if V has a naked flush draw or a pair and a flush draw.

 

[okeedokalee]

You can't bluff weak players. Their trash and will call and many times be stronger than your trash.
Bad players can't fold A/x unimproved as an example.

 

[Alucard]

Now, you have posted in the title that is 50 NLHE and then in the hand description it is 2 NLHE, which one is the correct limit because this changes a lot our decision-making process.

It's 50NL. Close to $60 in fact. I use a different currency in a different site using a hud catcher to transfer hands to pt4 so pt4 currency is wrong.
also 2nlhe in pt4 means 1/2 games which means 200NL. If it's 2NL then it'd be $0.02NL on PT4 hh

"You shouldn't bluff a fish" is very flawed reasoning. In fact you should bluff a fish as you do a regular/decent player maybe not in the same way & circumstances.

 

[Alucard]

You can't bluff weak players. Their trash and will call and many times be stronger than your trash.
Bad players can't fold A/x unimproved as an example.

another flawed reasoning. the frequency might be lower but you can obviously.

 

[Alucard]

So with 6 clean outs calling larger than 1/2 pot from a passive fish that probably wont pay us off if we hit seems like a bad plan.

My assumption is that he will pay us off that's why I'm calling & that's why checked behind on river.
But I also thought that if he had a Tx or better he'd porbably bet river as well maybe a small amount. So that comes down to missed draws, missed draw+pair etc. Maybe a pair of 9s,8s which gives him a gutter as well.
We can make almost off of those hands fold if we can convince him that we aren't bluffing a missed draw. At the moment I thought this is highly unlikely that's why I didn't bluff.

 

[Aballinamion]

Bluffing fishes out of position?

It's 50NL. Close to $60 in fact. I use a different currency in a different site using a hud catcher to transfer hands to pt4 so pt4 currency is wrong.
also 2nlhe in pt4 means 1/2 games which means 200NL. If it's 2NL then it'd be $0.02NL on PT4 hh

"You shouldn't bluff a fish" is very flawed reasoning. In fact you should bluff a fish as you do a regular/decent player maybe not in the same way & circumstances.

Hello Alucard thanks for your reply and attention.

When I wrote that "You shouldn't bluff a Fish", it is really a flawed line of thought, actually our real profit comes from extracting Value versus too much Passive or Aggresive players, either when we hit somethingo or when we are bluffing.
But there are a couple of scenarios that I simply don't like bluffing Fishes, and this is just a matter of choice and according to my gameplan and very limited skill level as a player.
Like I said before, I really don't like to try to bluff a weaker player out of position, it doesn't mean that I will never try to do it.
You had a pretty decent spot with a lot of equity, either Fold Equity, because even Passive and Aggressive Fishes FOLD % of times, (once in a lifetime when they hit nothing mostly), and then your bluff, maybe, it is profitable because:

A) For the times he/she Folds you take the pot immediately, which is awesome!

B) For the times he/she Calls you can also make a very strong hand in the Turn/River that will most of times be paid by a worst hand (the concept of value itself).

Sorry for my way of expressing things, sometimes when I am writing I do not catch all the details and I see now that very often, I am being radical with my lines of thought, so, once again, thanks a lot Alucard for your comments and candor, glad to see you here!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[c0rnBr34d]

My assumption is that he will pay us off that's why I'm calling & that's why checked behind on river.
But I also thought that if he had a Tx or better he'd porbably bet river as well maybe a small amount. So that comes down to missed draws, missed draw+pair etc. Maybe a pair of 9s,8s which gives him a gutter as well.
We can make almost off of those hands fold if we can convince him that we aren't bluffing a missed draw. At the moment I thought this is highly unlikely that's why I didn't bluff.

Good check back in my opinion. I think if we are making the assumption that they will pay us off if we get there as you state then they will also call us off if we bluff. If we add to that your assertions that V is sticky if not a station then that just re-enforces that this is the wrong type of fish to try to bluff on this river given our line of call pre, x/c flop, call turn with this run out.

 

[fundiver199]

True fish rarely bet their draws, because they dont understand equity and certainly not fold equity. So if he really is a fish, then his range is mostly weak made hands, that are a bit unsure, if they are still good on the river. Therefore he dont bet, but he is certainly not going to fold either. This is why, bluffing fish is often pretty tilting. They call you with bottom pair, and you ask yourself, why you keep on doing this to yourself. Check back and give up seem like a fine solution here.

 

[Alucard]

This is why, bluffing fish is often pretty tilting. They call you with bottom pair, and you ask yourself, why you keep on doing this to yourself. Check back and give up seem like a fine solution here.

I cry every time
Still my red line is pretty high up

 

[gustav197poker]

My assumption is that he will pay us off that's why I'm calling & that's why checked behind on river.
But I also thought that if he had a Tx or better he'd porbably bet river as well maybe a small amount. So that comes down to missed draws, missed draw+pair etc. Maybe a pair of 9s,8s which gives him a gutter as well.
We can make almost off of those hands fold if we can convince him that we aren't bluffing a missed draw. At the moment I thought this is highly unlikely that's why I didn't bluff.

I think you thought well because the chances of the villain coming to the river, with hands like 8-9; J-T; 7-8; Q-J; Q-8; A-J; K-J; 6-9. They are reduced due to your hand. This villain could even call the river with hands like K-T. So I find the final check balanced.

 

[PaxMundi]

Without showdown value id say yes the river is a bluff and for me the turn is a fold without improving the gut shot equity.

 

[PaxMundi]

Without showdown value id say yes the river is a bluff and for me the turn is a fold without improving the gut shot equity.

Ah i see you improved the turn to a double gutter and vs a fish the call might be ok as you likely get paid far more often when you hit.

 

[TheDude6622]

On this hand, I think the time to fold is on the turn. Neither your express, nor your implied odds, warrants a call with your gutshot.

I agree. You're hoping for one card to hit and they haven't shown any instance on giving up on the pot.

 

[GWU73]

Definitely not a bluff spot. I would have folded on the turn.