$50 NLHE 6-max: bluff-raising the river

[Haze of Spade]

i just started to raise more as a bluff like in river spots.
just wondering if this even is a spot to do it. i was assuming V is overbluffing here so i just went for it, but was surprised that it even worked.
might this be a good move with a more standard sizing?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 262.7 BB
Hero (SB): 420.3 BB
BB: 114.4 BB
UTG: 269.44 BB
MP: 97.7 BB
CO: 100 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♥ J♠

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) 9♥ Q♠ A♦
Hero bets 1.88 BB, BB calls 1.88 BB

Turn: (9.76 BB, 2 players) 7♠
Hero checks, BB checks

River: (9.76 BB, 2 players) 4♦
Hero checks, BB bets 4.64 BB, Hero raises to 10.76 BB, fold

Hero wins 18.08 BB

 

[Alucard]

I don't like it
you don't have any value hands that play like this

 

[gustav197poker]

In preflop you can either complete the blind or raise, but going deep limper is not a good idea. So 3x is a standard opening for this situation. On the flop we have 2 paths. In the first alternative we can check here and we have some reasons to do this:
Our hand reduces the QJ combos; KQ; AJ at rank V. This is not desirable because the times the villain decides to continue, he will mostly do it with combinations that harm our rank. For example: Ax and T-T.
The second option we have on this flop is to bet for bluff (We are actually transforming a semibluff into a strong hand). If we choose this path, the ideal is to extract a half pot size or more, to balance our range and polarize it between values ​​and draws that we are blocking.
We are not winning on the turn so if we choose not to bet on the flop we should not bet on the turn. On the other hand, if we wanted to knock down dominated hands on the flop, now on the turn it is unlikely to block the flush line that opens on the board. But if we have polarized on the flop, we can now get fold equity from smaller hands like 8-8; 9-8; 9-T; 6-6; 5-5. And at the same time we can take advantage of our Js blocker to get implied odds futures of minor scale draws like Ks-xs.
On the river according to the sequence played, all of the range V hands that continued should call the small raise you made. The fold that the villain made on the river is a strange move and the reality is that any value that hero wants to establish here, should better protect him on the previous streets.
Greetings.

 

[Haze of Spade]

I don't like it
you don't have any value hands that play like this

True but i thought maybe from a pure exploitative point of view this might work?
I think V will have much air here and he just cant call with 8 high.

 

[Haze of Spade]

If we choose this path, the ideal is to extract a half pot size or more, to balance our range and polarize it between values ​​and draws that we are blocking.
Greetings.

Whats the reason to polarize on this flop?
I think we get enough folds if we bet our whole range small here as the board crushes BBs range.
his range is super weak and he didnt schow aggression against my weakness so he must be even weaker, thats what i thought lol
If we bet bigger on the flop he wouldnt even have that many random bluffs on the river

 

[gustav197poker]

Whats the reason to polarize on this flop?
I think we get enough folds if we bet our whole range small here as the board crushes BBs range.
his range is super weak and he didnt schow aggression against my weakness so he must be even weaker, thats what i thought lol
If we bet bigger on the flop he wouldnt even have that many random bluffs on the river

In my opinion 8x is an excellent hand to bluff on the river since it blocks lines like J-T; 5-6; Q-8; T-8; 9-9; T-T. And at the same time it neutralizes formed values ​​that do not have a good kicker.
That's why a min raise is not convenient because if you receive a bigger 3-bet you should abandon the hand. The villain's rank is very confusing, he could be passive and pay you with either hand, since your rank doesn't seem too strong here either.
Regarding polarization, it is important for achieve the fold equity of minor combinations. We are not happy if a villain calls us with small bets.

 

[Aballinamion]

i just started to raise more as a bluff like in river spots.
just wondering if this even is a spot to do it. i was assuming V is overbluffing here so i just went for it, but was surprised that it even worked.
might this be a good move with a more standard sizing?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 262.7 BB
Hero (SB): 420.3 BB
BB: 114.4 BB
UTG: 269.44 BB
MP: 97.7 BB
CO: 100 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♥ J♠

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) 9♥ Q♠ A♦
Hero bets 1.88 BB, BB calls 1.88 BB

Turn: (9.76 BB, 2 players) 7♠
Hero checks, BB checks

River: (9.76 BB, 2 players) 4♦
Hero checks, BB bets 4.64 BB, Hero raises to 10.76 BB, fold

Hero wins 18.08 BB

I started reading your comments, thank you for them, and the hand and I just had some fresh ideas: when we are opening SB x BB we almost never have the best hand preflop, thus we cannot simply migh want to represent 'the nuts' OTR, because we are out of position, our range is very big from this position, and we don't start 'raising rivers for bluff' because we feel ourselves on the mood for so doing.
With all due respect, NLHE is a very serious game and we should take it into the level of rationality, and complexion, and analysis and methods, strategy, psychology and not because we feel ourselves the Daniel Negreanus of our own.
Well, I say right off the bat your line was very weak and luckily for you, your opponent is a massive whale, uncapable of game reading.
Follow the process of thinking: SB opens wide range, BB calls wide range, SB c-bets OOP for 1/3 pot, I believe with 100% range that opens and get calls (?), check turn and then a very good price raise OTR.
Given this amazing price, Villain/BB, if a competent player, should be calling down with any 4x, 7x, 9x and of course, the Qx and Ax's as well, not folding because your line isn't representing anything!
If you wanna bluff your missed draws, go for 1/3 pot OTF like you did and then send a bomb OTT, something like 60%, 80%, 100% pot and if Villain calls we are going to shove almost any river for bluff and for value and no matter the result.
OF course this line of bettting a lot OTT and jamming OTR is preposterous and impossible, considering Hero and Villain are very deep stacked. Anyways, you should have bet OTT while you still had equity, because it would be very embarassing for you if BB/Villain re-raises you or shove upon your face, forcing you to fold.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Haze of Spade]

I started reading your comments, thank you for them, and the hand and I just had some fresh ideas: when we are opening SB x BB we almost never have the best hand preflop, thus we cannot simply migh want to represent 'the nuts' OTR, because we are out of position, our range is very big from this position, and we don't start 'raising rivers for bluff' because we feel ourselves on the mood for so doing.
With all due respect, NLHE is a very serious game and we should take it into the level of rationality, and complexion, and analysis and methods, strategy, psychology and not because we feel ourselves the Daniel Negreanus of our own.
Well, I say right off the bat your line was very weak and luckily for you, your opponent is a massive whale, uncapable of game reading.
Follow the process of thinking: SB opens wide range, BB calls wide range, SB c-bets OOP for 1/3 pot, I believe with 100% range that opens and get calls (?), check turn and then a very good price raise OTR.
Given this amazing price, Villain/BB, if a competent player, should be calling down with any 4x, 7x, 9x and of course, the Qx and Ax's as well, not folding because your line isn't representing anything!
If you wanna bluff your missed draws, go for 1/3 pot OTF like you did and then send a bomb OTT, something like 60%, 80%, 100% pot and if Villain calls we are going to shove almost any river for bluff and for value and no matter the result.
OF course this line of bettting a lot OTT and jamming OTR is preposterous and impossible, considering Hero and Villain are very deep stacked. Anyways, you should have bet OTT while you still had equity, because it would be very embarassing for you if BB/Villain re-raises you or shove upon your face, forcing you to fold.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

I understand your point but this move was pure exploitation. I see you are thinking very high level poker, but this V obviously didnt. I dont think he was a huge whale, he was a reg by the stats! I just thought many regs auto-bluff that spot (me included) so this move might be ev+ but i didnt do any math

 

[Aballinamion]

I understand your point but this move was pure exploitation. I see you are thinking very high level poker, but this V obviously didnt. I dont think he was a huge whale, he was a reg by the stats! I just thought many regs auto-bluff that spot (me included) so this move might be ev+ but i didnt do any math

Thanks for the input mate. With all due respect, I assumed that Villain was a fish mostly because of its river fold.
Actually, being even more respectful, as I said, both you and Villain made a big blunder:

Hero's blunder: give a wonderful price for BB's range to pay with anything and sometimes even with overcards high such as Ax, Kx, Qx, of course that part of those hands hit the board, but nothing should be folding to your raise OTR.

Villain's blunder: to bet and fold OTR when there is a great price?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Dkerridge14]

i just started to raise more as a bluff like in river spots.
just wondering if this even is a spot to do it. i was assuming V is overbluffing here so i just went for it, but was surprised that it even worked.
might this be a good move with a more standard sizing?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 262.7 BB
Hero (SB): 420.3 BB
BB: 114.4 BB
UTG: 269.44 BB
MP: 97.7 BB
CO: 100 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♥ J♠

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) 9♥ Q♠ A♦
Hero bets 1.88 BB, BB calls 1.88 BB

Turn: (9.76 BB, 2 players) 7♠
Hero checks, BB checks

River: (9.76 BB, 2 players) 4♦
Hero checks, BB bets 4.64 BB, Hero raises to 10.76 BB, fold

Hero wins 18.08 BB

Yeah you definitely have to pot the turn If you’re going to go with this hand, you’re likely to fold off all 2nd pair hands and you don’t have much showdown. If you do hit however, the opponent is very likely to call your bet regardless of sizing as their range is gonna be heavily Ax type hands going forward because you play your 2nd pairs this way. 2nd pair comes For when your J hits you you can push all your queens off with a 3/4 pot bet and that is going to challenge all the aces My thought is backed with the effort of maximising fold equity because you don’t win often at showdown.

 

[MungBeans]

I don't know if this was a good bluff or not, but I'm wondering, what hand/hands do you think you're representing here on the river?