$5 NLHE Full Ring: Should you call or fold on the river?

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Mcclares

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 19/14/2

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 100 BB
MP: 114.2 BB
CO: 100.2 BB
BTN: 96.4 BB
SB: 92.6 BB
BB: 45.2 BB
Hero (UTG): 113.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J:heart: A:club:

Hero raises to 4 BB, UTG+1 calls 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 3 BB

Flop: (12.4 BB, 3 players) 5:diamond: 6:heart: A:spade:
BB checks, Hero bets 7 BB, UTG+1 calls 7 BB, fold

Turn: (26.4 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 13 BB, Hero calls 13 BB

River: (52.4 BB, 2 players) A:heart:
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 25 BB,

Thakns for adviced!
 
Alucard

Alucard

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open is a bit loose but I'm fine with it. Bet turn bet river for value
as played easy xc riv
 
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gustav197poker

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I think you should open bigger, to avoid a multi ways boat. 3 bb is the standard, but if you suspect that there is a villain with a very wide range on the table, feel free to open larger, 4bb or 5bb. Although your hand is not very good for these sizes, it only works if you are really sure that you face very open ranges and that you can achieve a high fold equity preflop in them. If you play a tight game (on a tight table) it is clearly a fold preflop. You will usually in micro stakes find many extreme points, very loose players or too nits . In this case, your kicker protects you 69% of the time. This would have a better evaluation, if we have more information about the player utg + 1. The villain is also in a strong range position. Without more information this is a call with about 3: 1.
Greetings.
 
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fundiver199

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The first thing to notice here is, that you opened UTG, and a tight regular called you next to act. This typically mean, his range is fairly narrow and consist mostly of pocket pairs trying to flop a set. He might also have AQ, and maybe some suited connectors, if he is getting a little out of line, but that he is pretty much it. He will never have a hand like AT or A9 for instance.

This mean, that on an A high board like this, we are either behind, or his hand is mostly a pocket pair, which missed its set. Against that kind of hand we can expect to get one maybe two streets of value. So right off the bat we need to check somewhere here, and I personally think, its to late to check on the river.

As played we need to be good 1 in 4 times to break even on a river call. And crazy as it sound, I am not sure, we are good that often. Because what can he even have here, which call preflop, call flop, call turn and now bet the river? He probably folded most of his pocket pairs on the turn if not the flop, and if he did call with a hand like QQ, it seem fairly pointless for him to bet the river. So the only possible hand, I can come up with, which we beat, would be a counterfeited two pair like 65s, which he is turning into a bluff.
 
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gustav197poker

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I forget a small detail 19/14/2. What will be in sample size of hands played by this villain at the table? When they publish these statistics I always forget to ask this.
 
Aballinamion

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The Leveling Wars, Episode IV: UTG vs UTG+1 Cold Calling Range

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 19/14/2

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 100 BB
MP: 114.2 BB
CO: 100.2 BB
BTN: 96.4 BB
SB: 92.6 BB
BB: 45.2 BB
Hero (UTG): 113.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J A

Hero raises to 4 BB, UTG+1 calls 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 3 BB

Flop: (12.4 BB, 3 players) 5 6 A
BB checks, Hero bets 7 BB, UTG+1 calls 7 BB, fold

Turn: (26.4 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 13 BB, Hero calls 13 BB

River: (52.4 BB, 2 players) A
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 25 BB,

Thakns for adviced!

Hello there Mcclares, thanks a lot for sharing your hand with us.
Now, let's go for the subject itself: this is a full ring table, and as @gustav197poker said, players are too much polarized: there are tons of NITs and Whales around with very non-sense unbalanced preflop and postflop ranges.
However, having only this information it doesn't help us at all: for example, the player in the UTG+1 called preflop, but you have to know how many hands played with him/her and what is the Call Open % of this Villain (How many times in % form does Villain cold calls UTG+1 vs MP).
I say right off the bat that this Villain seems the standard Tight Passive: VPIP 19, PFR 14 and AF 2. However this information doesn't help us either. I believe that when this player calls, it is way too strong, because there are 5 players left to act!
Some TAGs will widen their ranges in spots like this because there is a recreational player sitting in the Big Blind and other in the Small Blind position, as you described SB had 92.6 blinds ES, and BB had 45.2 blinds ES.
But when I say "widen", I mean that it is going to call you with more pocket pairs than usual and overall, strong hands.

What a Passive Tight is calling preflop from UTG+1?

It is way too strong and we don't expect here, in a high frequency, that UTG+1 to call with some random aces, such as A9, or AT, even AJ is way too weak. Now this is the point of the hand: we have 12 combos of AJo preflop and this is a Full Ring table. If we begin to open all of the 12 combos of AJo preflop we are just getting way too loose, because AJ will not play very good out of position, specially when a Passive Tight player calls you IP.
So, UTG+1 is calling here with AQ, AK, sometimes KQ, KJ, although they are very easy folds from EP after somebody raises, and it will call you, maybe, with all of the pocket pairs.
What happens is that the player with a broken stack enter the pot, and maybe that was the plan of UTG+1 and we go to a 3-way pot:

The Flop:

Remember that you've opened 4x preflop which is a pretty fair size. Remember that both UTG+1 and BB called and the flop is a little bit bigger than a single raised pot.
Considering that we play most of times with 100 blinds of effective stack, and on the flop the pot is 12.4, this means that most of times here we already invested 12% of our stack already on the flop and if we go for larger sizings here the pot will be way to big on the turn and we are going to have serious problems to leave some hands, when we hit them, such as:

A) TPGK, TP2K and TPTK
B) Two Pair, or Top Two Pair
C) Trips

So, you bet a little more than 1/2 pot here, being out of position with 100% of our range.
What can happen here is very simple, UTG+1 and BB can check-raise you here, representing A5, A6 (BB's range), 55, 66 and maybe a trap, AA, AQ, AK (UTG+1's range).
Yes, some players can call here with AA knowing that the fishes in the blinds could Squeeze or Call and make a lot of errors postflop.
There is a good chance that UTG+1 doesn't even have any Ax, because of the removal, but this is micro-stakes and definitely, everything is possible.
Other hands that could be check-raising for bluff here are 87, 43, 32, on BB's range, and when BB does it raise you on the flop you are in a very tough situation.
Both betting 1/3 here and checking are okay lines, because we are not really sure about the value of TP3K on a flop like this.

The Turn

BB folds and the 4c completes a sequence that almost never UTG+1 will have. You check and UTG+1 bets, and now this is a very hard call for us: there aren't too many bluffs on UTG+1's ranges right now, no flush draw, this sequence doesn't connect to the range that calls from that position, so it lasts pure air bluffs, which a passive tag will have none, and the value hands, that are mostly sets with pocket pairs, such as 55, 66, 44 and in a very low frequency, AA. Yup, it sucks but it will happen in a low frequency ratio.
Besides Villain can show here AQ and AK and depending how much it calls preflop some A4s, A5s, that has two pair now. (we don't know the stat Call Open).
So, we see that UTG+1 doesn't have many bluffs (or any bluffs!) and the hands that UTG+1 bets here are mostly beating our range: very hard to believe that a TAG player would be betting here some crazy KK, QQ, TT, 99, it doesn't happen, unless this is a whale one, because the Ace in the Flop connects too strong with Hero/UTG's range which can have AK, AQ, AJ, and even AA, so it doesn't make sense for those hands to bet turn, they should be checking giving they have a lot of showdown value and UTG could be "bluffing" here in a low frequency some JJ, for example, trying to represent the Ace on the flop. (When you bet 1/2 pot flop you are representing mostly you Ax range).
What is our overall plan here when we do call a 1/2 pot bet on the turn? To continue paying on which rivers? When it comes another ace are we going for stacks? When it comes a King are we going? When it comes a Jack and we complete two pair are we going for stacks?
And all of the other rivers that will suck for us, if UTG+1 bets are we really calling because "our hand is still too strong and we have odds"..??

The River Deception

It seems that this river is fantastic, however, when UTG+1 sends 1/2 pot again, instead of checking its range, we should be folding here! Very easy fold, this is a mistake that almost 95% of the players commit at lower limits (from 2 NLHE to 200 NLHE), "because now I have a trips, no way I am gonna fold this, etc, etc, etc"
It seems a very easy call right? we have to pay only 25 blinds for a pot of over 102 blinds, so the math is easy, we only need to be right here 1 out of 4 times.
The pot odds are very clear: we have odds here if we believe that UTG+1 has on its range more than 25% of bluffs on a river like this, and then you gotta make your homework of counting the combos you believe UTG+1 get on a river like this and see:
If you believe that UTG+1 has more than 25% of bluffs (because of the rake UTG+1 needs to have at least 28% of bluffs here), your call is breakeven.
We never raise this river because is the real big mistake of all: UTG+1 can plays close to perfection and folds all of its bluffs and second hands, even KK, QQ and only continue paying with hands that have you beat such as Sets and Two Pair and AQ and AK.
Players at the micros are simply not bluffing enough on rivers like this to make our call profitable, so it is a very easy fold.
Until the river we have invested only 24 blinds. Now we have to invest more 25 for a pot that we know that once in a while, Passive TAG will show some KK.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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""(...)we are good that often. Because what can he even have here, which call preflop, call flop, call turn and now bet the river? He probably folded most of his pocket pairs on the turn if not the flop, and if he did call with a hand like QQ, it seem fairly pointless for him to bet the river. So the only possible hand, I can come up with, which we beat, would be a counterfeited two pair like 65s, which he is turning into a bluff.

UTG+1 didn't call turn man, sorry. The poster said that he/she check-called turn:

"Turn: (26.4 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 13 BB, Hero calls 13 BB"
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River Hero/UTG checks again and then UTG+1 fires a very easy 1/2 pot bet giving us excellent odds, and I don't love when players give me excellent odds on a scenario like this.
We need to be right 1 out of 4 times here, but we believe that a ABC Passive Tight, with AF 2, would never have more than 25% of bluffs on a river like this, and the bluffs should be betting larger either on turn or river to reach fold equity.
But I feel glad that you have a very similar thought to mine and almost all the hand situations.
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Regards;
[FONT=NotoSans, Lato, arial, sans-serif]
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[FONT=NotoSans, Lato, arial, sans-serif]Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
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fundiver199

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I misread the hand history and thought, Hero had bet the turn. When Hero instead check-called the turn, Villains range will be wider, and I think, we have to call down on this river card. Maybe he think, we dont have an ace, since we checked, and actually bets his QQ "for value".
 
Aballinamion

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Too low, I don't fold the trips of aces here with 3: 1.

Hi friend, just out of curiosity here, at the micros we are almost never folding this situation, but what if this hand was played at 100 NLHE, would you still be calling river versus a ABC Passive TAG? Thanks!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Aballinamion

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I misread the hand history and thought, Hero had bet the turn. When Hero instead check-called the turn, Villains range will be wider, and I think, we have to call down on this river card. Maybe he think, we dont have an ace, since we checked, and actually bets his QQ "for value".

Possible, but not likely to happen in a high frequency from a passive tight at the micros.
I believe that almost 100% of times it will show full-houses and AQ and AK here, so no point in vasting blinds for the rare times it will present some insane JJ, QQ or KK.
I don't believe the call the end of the world, it is possible, but a very hard call, not an easy call as someone claimed before.
BTW, sorry for being so boring with you. :D

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Aballinamion

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Around 100 hands

Hey buddy, help us here please, do you have info of how much % UTG+1 3-bets preflop and folds to 3-bet preflop?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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gustav197poker

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Hi friend, just out of curiosity here, at the micros we are almost never folding this situation, but what if this hand was played at 100 NLHE, would you still be calling river versus a ABC Passive TAG? Thanks!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa



Fold preflop LOL. I'm not really happy on this board, the J is disgusting here, I prefer a lower scale to block this weird co-ordination. Also 19/14 in NL100 is very different, I am very close to fold in this place. But since the sample is very small and the offer is very cheap, I probably pay by obligation (although I really know that I am behind)
Regards friend.
 
Aballinamion

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Fold preflop LOL. I'm not really happy on this board, the J is disgusting here, I prefer a lower scale to block this weird co-ordination. Also 19/14 in NL100 is very different, I am very close to fold in this place. But since the sample is very small and the offer is very cheap, I probably pay by obligation (although I really know that I am behind)
Regards friend.

Happy to read it! I am also not opening AJo from UTG in a Full Ring table, because players until 200 NLHE are very tight. At 6-Max table I don't open all of my combos of ATo from UTG for the same reason. Thank you for your attention, candor and kindness.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
M

Mcclares

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Hello there Mcclares, thanks a lot for sharing your hand with us.
Now, let's go for the subject itself: this is a full ring table, and as @gustav197poker said, players are too much polarized: there are tons of NITs and Whales around with very non-sense unbalanced preflop and postflop ranges.
However, having only this information it doesn't help us at all: for example, the player in the UTG+1 called preflop, but you have to know how many hands played with him/her and what is the Call Open % of this Villain (How many times in % form does Villain cold calls UTG+1 vs MP).
I say right off the bat that this Villain seems the standard Tight Passive: VPIP 19, PFR 14 and AF 2. However this information doesn't help us either. I believe that when this player calls, it is way too strong, because there are 5 players left to act!
Some TAGs will widen their ranges in spots like this because there is a recreational player sitting in the Big Blind and other in the Small Blind position, as you described SB had 92.6 blinds ES, and BB had 45.2 blinds ES.
But when I say "widen", I mean that it is going to call you with more pocket pairs than usual and overall, strong hands.

What a Passive Tight is calling preflop from UTG+1?

It is way too strong and we don't expect here, in a high frequency, that UTG+1 to call with some random aces, such as A9, or AT, even AJ is way too weak. Now this is the point of the hand: we have 12 combos of AJo preflop and this is a Full Ring table. If we begin to open all of the 12 combos of AJo preflop we are just getting way too loose, because AJ will not play very good out of position, specially when a Passive Tight player calls you IP.
So, UTG+1 is calling here with AQ, AK, sometimes KQ, KJ, although they are very easy folds from EP after somebody raises, and it will call you, maybe, with all of the pocket pairs.
What happens is that the player with a broken stack enter the pot, and maybe that was the plan of UTG+1 and we go to a 3-way pot:

The Flop:

Remember that you've opened 4x preflop which is a pretty fair size. Remember that both UTG+1 and BB called and the flop is a little bit bigger than a single raised pot.
Considering that we play most of times with 100 blinds of effective stack, and on the flop the pot is 12.4, this means that most of times here we already invested 12% of our stack already on the flop and if we go for larger sizings here the pot will be way to big on the turn and we are going to have serious problems to leave some hands, when we hit them, such as:

A) TPGK, TP2K and TPTK
B) Two Pair, or Top Two Pair
C) Trips

So, you bet a little more than 1/2 pot here, being out of position with 100% of our range.
What can happen here is very simple, UTG+1 and BB can check-raise you here, representing A5, A6 (BB's range), 55, 66 and maybe a trap, AA, AQ, AK (UTG+1's range).
Yes, some players can call here with AA knowing that the fishes in the blinds could Squeeze or Call and make a lot of errors postflop.
There is a good chance that UTG+1 doesn't even have any Ax, because of the removal, but this is micro-stakes and definitely, everything is possible.
Other hands that could be check-raising for bluff here are 87, 43, 32, on BB's range, and when BB does it raise you on the flop you are in a very tough situation.
Both betting 1/3 here and checking are okay lines, because we are not really sure about the value of TP3K on a flop like this.

The Turn

BB folds and the 4c completes a sequence that almost never UTG+1 will have. You check and UTG+1 bets, and now this is a very hard call for us: there aren't too many bluffs on UTG+1's ranges right now, no flush draw, this sequence doesn't connect to the range that calls from that position, so it lasts pure air bluffs, which a passive tag will have none, and the value hands, that are mostly sets with pocket pairs, such as 55, 66, 44 and in a very low frequency, AA. Yup, it sucks but it will happen in a low frequency ratio.
Besides Villain can show here AQ and AK and depending how much it calls preflop some A4s, A5s, that has two pair now. (we don't know the stat Call Open).
So, we see that UTG+1 doesn't have many bluffs (or any bluffs!) and the hands that UTG+1 bets here are mostly beating our range: very hard to believe that a TAG player would be betting here some crazy KK, QQ, TT, 99, it doesn't happen, unless this is a whale one, because the Ace in the Flop connects too strong with Hero/UTG's range which can have AK, AQ, AJ, and even AA, so it doesn't make sense for those hands to bet turn, they should be checking giving they have a lot of showdown value and UTG could be "bluffing" here in a low frequency some JJ, for example, trying to represent the Ace on the flop. (When you bet 1/2 pot flop you are representing mostly you Ax range).
What is our overall plan here when we do call a 1/2 pot bet on the turn? To continue paying on which rivers? When it comes another ace are we going for stacks? When it comes a King are we going? When it comes a Jack and we complete two pair are we going for stacks?
And all of the other rivers that will suck for us, if UTG+1 bets are we really calling because "our hand is still too strong and we have odds"..??

The River Deception

It seems that this river is fantastic, however, when UTG+1 sends 1/2 pot again, instead of checking its range, we should be folding here! Very easy fold, this is a mistake that almost 95% of the players commit at lower limits (from 2 NLHE to 200 NLHE), "because now I have a trips, no way I am gonna fold this, etc, etc, etc"
It seems a very easy call right? we have to pay only 25 blinds for a pot of over 102 blinds, so the math is easy, we only need to be right here 1 out of 4 times.
The pot odds are very clear: we have odds here if we believe that UTG+1 has on its range more than 25% of bluffs on a river like this, and then you gotta make your homework of counting the combos you believe UTG+1 get on a river like this and see:
If you believe that UTG+1 has more than 25% of bluffs (because of the rake UTG+1 needs to have at least 28% of bluffs here), your call is breakeven.
We never raise this river because is the real big mistake of all: UTG+1 can plays close to perfection and folds all of its bluffs and second hands, even KK, QQ and only continue paying with hands that have you beat such as Sets and Two Pair and AQ and AK.
Players at the micros are simply not bluffing enough on rivers like this to make our call profitable, so it is a very easy fold.
Until the river we have invested only 24 blinds. Now we have to invest more 25 for a pot that we know that once in a while, Passive TAG will show some KK.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa


Very wonderful!! Carlos you are good player of poker, I think so! Thanks
 
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fundiver199

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The issue with folding on this river is, that if we dont even call down on a card, that actually improved us, then it was almost certainly a mistake to call the turn. Its not like, we were beating any reasonably value bets on the turn either, or had a massive draw, we were trying to complete. So the whole point of check-calling the turn is, we assume, he is able to either overplay his hand or bluff. And in that case why would this not also be the case on the river?

I know, this is 5NL, the regulars are very unbalanced, and this half pot betsize is so often skewed towards value. But even so I think, its one of those, where our hand is just to strong to fold. We realistically lose to 6 combos of sets, and to AQ/AK, which we block, and which would at least sometimes have 3-bet. We dont need to find many combos of bluffs or overplayed stuff to be good here 25% of the time, and if he did in fact have the best hand, it was just a good runout for him. We pay the man his money and move on.
 
Aballinamion

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Very wonderful!! Carlos you are good player of poker, I think so! Thanks

You are very sweet, thanks a lot for your kind words!
I am not so good player, I am just an applied student, nothing more. Besides I am a poker lover which makes the life easier!
Have a nice day!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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The first thing to notice here is, that you opened UTG, and a tight regular called you next to act. This typically mean, his range is fairly narrow and consist mostly of pocket pairs trying to flop a set. He might also have AQ, and maybe some suited connectors, if he is getting a little out of line, but that he is pretty much it. He will never have a hand like AT or A9 for instance.

This mean, that on an A high board like this, we are either behind, or his hand is mostly a pocket pair, which missed its set. Against that kind of hand we can expect to get one maybe two streets of value. So right off the bat we need to check somewhere here, and I personally think, its to late to check on the river.

As played we need to be good 1 in 4 times to break even on a river call. And crazy as it sound, I am not sure, we are good that often. Because what can he even have here, which call preflop, call flop, call turn and now bet the river? He probably folded most of his pocket pairs on the turn if not the flop, and if he did call with a hand like QQ, it seem fairly pointless for him to bet the river. So the only possible hand, I can come up with, which we beat, would be a counterfeited two pair like 65s, which he is turning into a bluff.

Hero checked called the turn not bet call
 
0815am

0815am

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I‘d fold.

I think he will have a set or a better ace. Don’t think UTG+1 necessarily 3B AQ or AK here and don’t see him call many worse aces.

Also sizing indicates he wants a call
 
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