$5 NLHE Full Ring: NL5 how you would play this hand?

[Mcclares]

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 62/22/3

Hey friends, . I had bad beat and do not know what is better way to play this hand, if someone can help me, I will say to him or her, thank you! (I know that on the turn maybe I needed to fold my hand, but I am interesting of your opinion, how you could play this hand in my situations).

pokerstars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players


MP: 59.6 BB
MP+1: 203.4 BB
CO: 63.6 BB
BTN: 121.8 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 104.4 BB
UTG: 40.6 BB
Hero (UTG+1): 159.2 BB

MP+1 HUD STATS(77):
62/22/AF:3
3BP:11/CBF:43/4B:0
F3BP:43/FCB:50/F4B:0

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qd Ad
UTG raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 6 BB, fold, MP+1 raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 23 BB, MP+1 calls 13 BB

Flop : (49.4 BB, 2 players) 8h 6h Qh
Hero bets 35.6 BB, MP+1 calls 35.6 BB

Turn : (120.6 BB, 2 players) Kh
Hero bets 86.8 BB, MP+1 raises to 144.8 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 13.8 BB and is all-in

River : (321.8 BB, 2 players) 5d

Hero shows Qd Ad (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 52%, Flop 32%, Turn 0%)

MP+1 shows Ah Qc (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 48%, Flop 68%, Turn 100%)

MP+1 wins 308.4 BB

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I often like to put in a reraise, when a fish makes these silly click-it-back raises preflop. But in this particular situation it was a 4-bet, which tend to be more weighted towards a strong hand than a click-it-back 3-bet. So I am not sure, we really need to 5-bet here. Its not a bluff, since fish dont fold, and it might be a bit of a stretch to say, that this is for value. I kind of lean towards just calling the extra 4BB and see a flop.

Flop
You flopped TPTK, but its a monotone board, and you dont have a flushdraw. I dont think, you absolutely have to bet here. Its nice to see him checking back the flop and then no heart on the turn, before you start committing even more money. Betting is sort of ok as well, but I would at least make it smaller, especially when the pot is already so big. You are drawing dead to a flush here, and he could also have hands like KK or AA, which just called your 5-bet pre. So this is not a spot, where I absolutely want to play for all the money.

Turn
The absolutely worst card in the deck, and as you say, its time to cut your losses and check-fold. Instead you turned your hand into a bluff, which I really dont like against a fish. Of course he is always going to call you with the nut flush, but this is the kind of player, who will also not be able to fold KQ, when he just improved to two pair etc.

 

[Jdjakubisin]

Look at it this way....

I used to say, and have heard other people say the same, you should bet for one of four reasons. If you are not betting for one of them, its wrong.

1) To get value for a good hand
2) To defend the value of a starting hand. (Via c-betting, etc...)
3) To bluff and try to get value anyway.
4) MOST IMPORTANT, to get information.

You bet the flop to see what happened, but after that I am almost figuring I'm drawing dead.

 

[eetenor]

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 62/22/3

Hey friends, . I had bad beat and do not know what is better way to play this hand, if someone can help me, I will say to him or her, thank you! (I know that on the turn maybe I needed to fold my hand, but I am interesting of your opinion, how you could play this hand in my situations).

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players


MP: 59.6 BB
MP+1: 203.4 BB
CO: 63.6 BB
BTN: 121.8 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 104.4 BB
UTG: 40.6 BB
Hero (UTG+1): 159.2 BB

MP+1 HUD STATS(77):
62/22/AF:3
3BP:11/CBF:43/4B:0
F3BP:43/FCB:50/F4B:0

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qd Ad
UTG raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 6 BB, fold, MP+1 raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 23 BB, MP+1 calls 13 BB

Flop : (49.4 BB, 2 players) 8h 6h Qh
Hero bets 35.6 BB, MP+1 calls 35.6 BB

Turn : (120.6 BB, 2 players) Kh
Hero bets 86.8 BB, MP+1 raises to 144.8 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 13.8 BB and is all-in

River : (321.8 BB, 2 players) 5d

Hero shows Qd Ad (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 52%, Flop 32%, Turn 0%)

MP+1 shows Ah Qc (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 48%, Flop 68%, Turn 100%)

MP+1 wins 308.4 BB

Thank U 4 Posting.

First, this was not a bad beat. You had the exact same hand AQ preflop

90% tie 7% u win 2% they win. That is not a bad beat.

On the flop Qh 8h 6h
Your win equity is 0%/ tie 63%

You have no way to win after the flop that is not a bad beat.

V could have played AhKh exactly the same way. V could have played AhAx KhKx QQ JhJx exactly the same way.

You greatly over valued your 1 pair on that flop. Then on the turn when the 2hX is a better hand than yours you went all-in. With no redraw vs even the 2h. Of course your villain was never folding either the Ah or Jh. Both of which are likely as the V raised and called preflop.

It is never a bad beat when we could have check folded on the turn and kept 100bb in our stack. We also lose to AsKs AcKc and any AK off suit on the turn as well as AhJh Ah10h
AhJs etc etc etc, as V had to call 13bb to win 47bb + your remaining 126bb.

If we hope to get better at poker. It is very important to recognize when we play our hands poorly.

The primary skill that was missing from this hand was the fundamental understanding of hand ranges. We need to better understand what hands our villain could be holding and how our hand does vs that range preflop, flop, turn and river.

The secondary skill that was missing is proper bet sizing.


Hope this helps

 

[Mcclares]

Thank U 4 Posting.

First, this was not a bad beat. You had the exact same hand AQ preflop

90% tie 7% u win 2% they win. That is not a bad beat.

On the flop Qh 8h 6h
Your win equity is 0%/ tie 63%

You have no way to win after the flop that is not a bad beat.

V could have played AhKh exactly the same way. V could have played AhAx KhKx QQ JhJx exactly the same way.

You greatly over valued your 1 pair on that flop. Then on the turn when the 2hX is a better hand than yours you went all-in. With no redraw vs even the 2h. Of course your villain was never folding either the Ah or Jh. Both of which are likely as the V raised and called preflop.

It is never a bad beat when we could have check folded on the turn and kept 100bb in our stack. We also lose to AsKs AcKc and any AK off suit on the turn as well as AhJh Ah10h
AhJs etc etc etc, as V had to call 13bb to win 47bb + your remaining 126bb.

If we hope to get better at poker. It is very important to recognize when we play our hands poorly.

The primary skill that was missing from this hand was the fundamental understanding of hand ranges. We need to better understand what hands our villain could be holding and how our hand does vs that range preflop, flop, turn and river.

The secondary skill that was missing is proper bet sizing.


Hope this helps

Thanky very much, now I know my mistake and will work, because I want to be better, again Thanks!

 

[Mcclares]

Look at it this way....

I used to say, and have heard other people say the same, you should bet for one of four reasons. If you are not betting for one of them, its wrong.

1) To get value for a good hand
2) To defend the value of a starting hand. (Via c-betting, etc...)
3) To bluff and try to get value anyway.
4) MOST IMPORTANT, to get information.

You bet the flop to see what happened, but after that I am almost figuring I'm drawing dead.

Thanks, that you reminded me about this)

 

[Mcclares]

Preflop
I often like to put in a reraise, when a fish makes these silly click-it-back raises preflop. But in this particular situation it was a 4-bet, which tend to be more weighted towards a strong hand than a click-it-back 3-bet. So I am not sure, we really need to 5-bet here. Its not a bluff, since fish dont fold, and it might be a bit of a stretch to say, that this is for value. I kind of lean towards just calling the extra 4BB and see a flop.

Flop
You flopped TPTK, but its a monotone board, and you dont have a flushdraw. I dont think, you absolutely have to bet here. Its nice to see him checking back the flop and then no heart on the turn, before you start committing even more money. Betting is sort of ok as well, but I would at least make it smaller, especially when the pot is already so big. You are drawing dead to a flush here, and he could also have hands like KK or AA, which just called your 5-bet pre. So this is not a spot, where I absolutely want to play for all the money.

Turn
The absolutely worst card in the deck, and as you say, its time to cut your losses and check-fold. Instead you turned your hand into a bluff, which I really dont like against a fish. Of course he is always going to call you with the nut flush, but this is the kind of player, who will also not be able to fold KQ, when he just improved to two pair etc.

Thank you very much, I even did not notice that it was a mini 4-bet from fish( at that moment I thought it was 3-bet), if I would be careful, then played differently,Thanks again!

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, with AQs I prefer only call to 4bet pre flop. If I have hand AQ and opponent reraise me pre flop I usually only call pre flop. You played this hand very aggressively. As played - On the flop I play like you, mandatory I play cbet for about 67% of the pot. When opponent call our cbet I usually think that in his range is one high card with flush draw. I agree with Fundiver, when on the turn come up 4th card in the same colour what on the flop I usually give up our hand and I fold. Even if opponent haven't flush, usually he will be have two high cards like AK and king is in his range. I think that on the river is better fold our hand.

 

[jaworek1405]

Sorry, I wanted write that on the turn better fold.

 

[moulan7]

Hi there,

Preflop just call his silly 4bet. If he has indeed a monster then he's making a mistake here and gives you great odds to see the flop. The guy is a fish ok but 4bets are usually monsters.
Although here I think that he makes that 4bet because the pot is small to his eyes. 2bb open with a 6bb 3bet.. nah he doesn't like that, put 4bb more in, lol. But it is still a 4bet from a fish. That's dangerous. Do you 5bet because you know that he's a maniac or something or you think that you have value against someone who 4bets after an UTG open and an UTG+1 3bet.
If the sizes were correct, for example 3bb open to 9-10bb 3bet to 22-30bb 4bet, would you dare to 5bet here?

On flop better check/call or even check/fold. Hope to go check/check.
Betting is probably fine too but I don't like your sizing here. I think around 25-35% of the pot is better. This is a 5bet spot, although small for a 5bet, but still. The bets haven't always to be that big. If it's a single raised preflop spot it's ok to bet near the pot size.
Here you are involved in very marginal situation and you are next to be committed to the pot.

Now since he called that large bet and if we assume that he is a fishy calling station (which is probably true) I don't think you can win anything with your hand and it's a really bad spot to bluff a player of that type. Check/fold and relax xD.
King of hearts is probably the worst card for you here.
I don't like to involve my self in such marginal situations, there are easier, clearer and less frustrating ways to win at these limits.
Also when you bluff on the turn, for a lot of chips or all of your stack, it's better to have some outs at least, don't make it that tough for yourself as drawing dead.

 

[0815am]

Preflop:

3B is fine - but given that UTG is short I probably lean toward calling. Once min4B I would definitely just flat the min4b with my suited hand. You don’t want to play a big 5B pot deep OOP. That leaves you exactly there you don’t want to be. Also if you 5B and he shoves you lose the equity of your hand.

Flop:

I understand your inclination to protect your hand. And to continue aggression. But given the board I would try to potcontrol. Maybe put in a 25% Cbet.

Turn:

Even if it hurts, XF is the correct play.

 

[GWU73]

Super over play on every street. the pre flop 3 bet was fine, but you have to give credit to a cold 4bet. AQ is not AK, and even AK is usually in bad shape vs a cold 4bet. Flopping TP TK with that hand puts you ahead of only one hand that realistically 4bet pre flop. QQ, KK, and AA have you crushed. Three hearts mean AK suited or not, had enough equity to go for stacks due to you removing non heart AQ. The fact that opponent also had AQ was a little unusual, but illustrates the point. Also, dispite the fact that villain 3bets wide, his AF is 3, so he isn't obscenely aggressive. That means you should be giving 4 bets credit.

 

[TheDude6622]

You're playing right into the crazy player's hand here. When we face an agro person like this, we want to let them destroy themselves, not play into the craziness. I like the raise to 6BB pre, but when they click back again for a much bigger raise, it's either a call or fold. Once we hit the flop and we see they aren't backing down, we should DEFINITELY slow down. Our hand here is losing to a lot of hands. We could find a way better spot to stack them later on.

 

[fundiver199]

I like the raise to 6BB pre, but when they click back again for a much bigger raise, it's either a call or fold.

Its definitely not a fold, when we need to pay 4BB to win a pot of 23,5BB. With pot odds this good any hand is a call, and even more so against a fish.

 

[ksandr010]

Preflop. We are raising, we are being mini-raised by a passive opponent, so it was better to play just a call. Flop. We got a top pair, but there are possible flashdraw and even a ready-made flush, so here I would put 2/3 of the bank and fold it for aggression. Turn. Our hand has become even weaker and the flush is even more likely, so check / fold. The river would no longer mean anything and I would also play check / fold on it

 

[Mcclares]

Hello, with AQs I prefer only call to 4bet pre flop. If I have hand AQ and opponent reraise me pre flop I usually only call pre flop. You played this hand very aggressively. As played - On the flop I play like you, mandatory I play cbet for about 67% of the pot. When opponent call our cbet I usually think that in his range is one high card with flush draw. I agree with Fundiver, when on the turn come up 4th card in the same colour what on the flop I usually give up our hand and I fold. Even if opponent haven't flush, usually he will be have two high cards like AK and king is in his range. I think that on the river is better fold our hand.

Ok, thanks, I will remember:burnout:

 

[Mcclares]

Hi there,

Preflop just call his silly 4bet. If he has indeed a monster then he's making a mistake here and gives you great odds to see the flop. The guy is a fish ok but 4bets are usually monsters.
Although here I think that he makes that 4bet because the pot is small to his eyes. 2bb open with a 6bb 3bet.. nah he doesn't like that, put 4bb more in, lol. But it is still a 4bet from a fish. That's dangerous. Do you 5bet because you know that he's a maniac or something or you think that you have value against someone who 4bets after an UTG open and an UTG+1 3bet.
If the sizes were correct, for example 3bb open to 9-10bb 3bet to 22-30bb 4bet, would you dare to 5bet here?

On flop better check/call or even check/fold. Hope to go check/check.
Betting is probably fine too but I don't like your sizing here. I think around 25-35% of the pot is better. This is a 5bet spot, although small for a 5bet, but still. The bets haven't always to be that big. If it's a single raised preflop spot it's ok to bet near the pot size.
Here you are involved in very marginal situation and you are next to be committed to the pot.

Now since he called that large bet and if we assume that he is a fishy calling station (which is probably true) I don't think you can win anything with your hand and it's a really bad spot to bluff a player of that type. Check/fold and relax xD.
King of hearts is probably the worst card for you here.
I don't like to involve my self in such marginal situations, there are easier, clearer and less frustrating ways to win at these limits.
Also when you bluff on the turn, for a lot of chips or all of your stack, it's better to have some outs at least, don't make it that tough for yourself as drawing dead.

I agreed totally with you, I needed to call preflop, but then it seemed to me like 3bet, and i did stupidity, Thanks for advice)

 

[Aballinamion]

4-bet bluff (catcher)!

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 62/22/3

Hey friends, . I had bad beat and do not know what is better way to play this hand, if someone can help me, I will say to him or her, thank you! (I know that on the turn maybe I needed to fold my hand, but I am interesting of your opinion, how you could play this hand in my situations).

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players


MP: 59.6 BB
MP+1: 203.4 BB
CO: 63.6 BB
BTN: 121.8 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 104.4 BB
UTG: 40.6 BB
Hero (UTG+1): 159.2 BB

MP+1 HUD STATS(77):
62/22/AF:3
3BP:11/CBF:43/4B:0
F3BP:43/FCB:50/F4B:0

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qd Ad
UTG raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 6 BB, fold, MP+1 raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 23 BB, MP+1 calls 13 BB

Flop : (49.4 BB, 2 players) 8h 6h Qh
Hero bets 35.6 BB, MP+1 calls 35.6 BB

Turn : (120.6 BB, 2 players) Kh
Hero bets 86.8 BB, MP+1 raises to 144.8 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 13.8 BB and is all-in

River : (321.8 BB, 2 players) 5d

Hero shows Qd Ad (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 52%, Flop 32%, Turn 0%)

MP+1 shows Ah Qc (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 48%, Flop 68%, Turn 100%)

MP+1 wins 308.4 BB

Hello there Mcclares, welcome to the CardsChat community and thanks a lot for sharing this awesome hand with us!
This spot really sucks, because even knowing that fishes use to overbluff, you don't have a decent sample of hands played for taking decisions into deep stack pots (you only have 77 hands played with Villain, so we have no ideia how often it does 3-bet preflop).
Villain has position and has made some 3-bet and you decide to 4-bet to 2.3x here, which is very okay both if Villain folds or calls.
We do not have many hands when we 4-bet in a situation like this, also the recreational player who use to call. The vast majority of the times, at the micros, a 4-bet/Cold Call 4-bet range will be something like this, for all types of players, except the real absurd whales:

QQ+, ATs+, A5s-A2s, AQo+

At maximum 6% range, and many TAGs and NITs would never 4-bet bluff with ATs, AJs, A5s-A2s, or even QQ. This range at the micros is more close to 2% range at maximum.
Most of times we will find just AQ and AK as 4-bet bluffs and AA and KK, even when the players are recreational, unless they are really bad players to be entering a 4-bet player with Q9, 22, or a wide range, don't expect it!
What sucks in this hand is that we are going to play postflop out of position. But it is not the end of the world.

Flop

In a flop like this where you have no blocker of hearts you can go for two actions:

A) Betting 1/3 pot and planning to check-fold a lot of turns and some check-raises flop

B) Checking because the pot is already too big and this monotone flop is not good for our range: we will have a lot of better scenarios to play AQ in a 4-bet pot, this is simply not one of them.

When you go for 1/3 pot you are simply bluffing your TPTK, in a very polarized board where either Villain has one card of hearts which is not going to fold or the flush itself which is never folding as well. We bet in the case it doesn't have any of these and folds, which is awesome for us.
Other hands that continue paying here are QQ, but QQ is not paying a c-bet here with a large smile on its face.
Besides, you have no bluffs when you bet a flop like this: you have no 8x, no 6x, you never have 88 and 66, so you range is extremely capped for AA, KK, TPTK with Queen High, Set of Queens, a Nutted Flush or drawing to a Flush Draw+Runner Runner Straight (when you have Ah or Kh with AKo is a good spot for betting for value but AQs definitely not.
When you go for a 2/3 bet pot you are unbalancing your range too much for bluff.
In other words, you are turning a value hand (TPTK) into a bluff in a very dangerous flop for a 4-bet pot.
For the times you are right here are minimal and the ammount you already invested will not compensate a couple of few times you will be right and Villain indeed Cold Called 4-bet with KQ with no hearts in its combos: very optimistic and unrealistic way of playing poker.
Even when we have AhKh and we flop the nut flush we cannot bet 2/3 pot here because we are making Villain to fold a lot of bluffs and all the combos that don't have a hearts on it such as AA, KK, QQ, JJ and we don't want these hands to fold when we have the nut flush!
Also, considering this is a big stack pot, we believe we are burning chips away when we decide to go for such a exploitative sizing in a board where there is a great chance of us being paid only by better hands: all the combos without a hearts would fold to your large c-bet flop and only the best hands would continue.
At the micros, there are some crazy dudes with AA and KK without a combo of hearts that will never fold to your bet, but even so you are losing for those hands. QQ with a set never folds. Any Ace of Hearts or King of Hearts, or Queen of Hearts is not folding to any sizing here and sometimes the Ace of Hearts will jam you right on the flop putting you in a very hard and bitter spot.
Well needless to coment farther streets here, since this is a very huge blunder where you commited yourself in a monotone flop with TPTK, taking decisions based only upon HUD Stats. It doesn't matter that Villain is 66/22 spewy crazy-maniac in a 4-bet pot, because even maniacs have good sense and enter into 4-bet pots with the basics of strong hands.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Aballinamion]

Betting for information?

Look at it this way....

I used to say, and have heard other people say the same, you should bet for one of four reasons. If you are not betting for one of them, its wrong.

1) To get value for a good hand
2) To defend the value of a starting hand. (Via c-betting, etc...)
3) To bluff and try to get value anyway.
4) MOST IMPORTANT, to get information.

You bet the flop to see what happened, but after that I am almost figuring I'm drawing dead.

Hello there Jdjakubisin, sorry but with all due respect I strongly disagree of your reasons for betting. IMO there are only two main reasons for betting:

A) For Value: when we have a value hand and we believe we are going to be paid by worst hands.

B) For Bluff: when we have a bluff, semi-bluff but we believe we can make Villain to fold a better hand

Either when we bet for Value or for Bluff we are betting to protect our ranges (the value range and the bluffing range).
Betting to extract information is a good way to burn chips away:
"Oh, let me bet here to see how Villain would react and then I fold on later streets"
It is a very exploitative way of playing and I simply don't love it and don't recomment it to anyone. Besides, experient players will note this behavior on our game, because this is a leak and will destroy us at the tables.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Mcclares]

Hello there Mcclares, welcome to the CardsChat community and thanks a lot for sharing this awesome hand with us!
This spot really sucks, because even knowing that fishes use to overbluff, you don't have a decent sample of hands played for taking decisions into deep stack pots (you only have 77 hands played with Villain, so we have no ideia how often it does 3-bet preflop).
Villain has position and has made some 3-bet and you decide to 4-bet to 2.3x here, which is very okay both if Villain folds or calls.
We do not have many hands when we 4-bet in a situation like this, also the recreational player who use to call. The vast majority of the times, at the micros, a 4-bet/Cold Call 4-bet range will be something like this, for all types of players, except the real absurd whales:

QQ+, ATs+, A5s-A2s, AQo+

At maximum 6% range, and many TAGs and NITs would never 4-bet bluff with ATs, AJs, A5s-A2s, or even QQ. This range at the micros is more close to 2% range at maximum.
Most of times we will find just AQ and AK as 4-bet bluffs and AA and KK, even when the players are recreational, unless they are really bad players to be entering a 4-bet player with Q9, 22, or a wide range, don't expect it!
What sucks in this hand is that we are going to play postflop out of position. But it is not the end of the world.

Flop

In a flop like this where you have no blocker of hearts you can go for two actions:

A) Betting 1/3 pot and planning to check-fold a lot of turns and some check-raises flop

B) Checking because the pot is already too big and this monotone flop is not good for our range: we will have a lot of better scenarios to play AQ in a 4-bet pot, this is simply not one of them.

When you go for 1/3 pot you are simply bluffing your TPTK, in a very polarized board where either Villain has one card of hearts which is not going to fold or the flush itself which is never folding as well. We bet in the case it doesn't have any of these and folds, which is awesome for us.
Other hands that continue paying here are QQ, but QQ is not paying a c-bet here with a large smile on its face.
Besides, you have no bluffs when you bet a flop like this: you have no 8x, no 6x, you never have 88 and 66, so you range is extremely capped for AA, KK, TPTK with Queen High, Set of Queens, a Nutted Flush or drawing to a Flush Draw+Runner Runner Straight (when you have Ah or Kh with AKo is a good spot for betting for value but AQs definitely not.
When you go for a 2/3 bet pot you are unbalancing your range too much for bluff.
In other words, you are turning a value hand (TPTK) into a bluff in a very dangerous flop for a 4-bet pot.
For the times you are right here are minimal and the ammount you already invested will not compensate a couple of few times you will be right and Villain indeed Cold Called 4-bet with KQ with no hearts in its combos: very optimistic and unrealistic way of playing poker.
Even when we have AhKh and we flop the nut flush we cannot bet 2/3 pot here because we are making Villain to fold a lot of bluffs and all the combos that don't have a hearts on it such as AA, KK, QQ, JJ and we don't want these hands to fold when we have the nut flush!
Also, considering this is a big stack pot, we believe we are burning chips away when we decide to go for such a exploitative sizing in a board where there is a great chance of us being paid only by better hands: all the combos without a hearts would fold to your large c-bet flop and only the best hands would continue.
At the micros, there are some crazy dudes with AA and KK without a combo of hearts that will never fold to your bet, but even so you are losing for those hands. QQ with a set never folds. Any Ace of Hearts or King of Hearts, or Queen of Hearts is not folding to any sizing here and sometimes the Ace of Hearts will jam you right on the flop putting you in a very hard and bitter spot.
Well needless to coment farther streets here, since this is a very huge blunder where you commited yourself in a monotone flop with TPTK, taking decisions based only upon HUD Stats. It doesn't matter that Villain is 66/22 spewy crazy-maniac in a 4-bet pot, because even maniacs have good sense and enter into 4-bet pots with the basics of strong hands.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Hey, very big comment, Thank you very much for everything)

 

[Jdjakubisin]

Hello there Jdjakubisin, sorry but with all due respect I strongly disagree of your reasons for betting. IMO there are only two main reasons for betting:

A) For Value: when we have a value hand and we believe we are going to be paid by worst hands.

B) For Bluff: when we have a bluff, semi-bluff but we believe we can make Villain to fold a better hand

Either when we bet for Value or for Bluff we are betting to protect our ranges (the value range and the bluffing range).
Betting to extract information is a good way to burn chips away:
"Oh, let me bet here to see how Villain would react and then I fold on later streets"
It is a very exploitative way of playing and I simply don't love it and don't recomment it to anyone. Besides, experient players will note this behavior on our game, because this is a leak and will destroy us at the tables.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Yea I think sometimes when you "bluff" and your opponent reacts and you have to fold, it was a bluff that would deliver you some information. I'm indifferent to the wording.

I also wouldn't recommend doing it all day to the point where it is costly. Like all bets or bluffs timing is key on many levels.

I think getting people to observe information when it is presented to them in a hand is the main idea here. I thought just "bet or bluff" seemed a little shallow.

That was my point.

 

[Aballinamion]

Hey, very big comment, Thank you very much for everything)

It is very kind of you, thank you very much too! Have a nice day.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Jdjakubisin]

Hello there Jdjakubisin, sorry but with all due respect I strongly disagree of your reasons for betting. IMO there are only two main reasons for betting:

A) For Value: when we have a value hand and we believe we are going to be paid by worst hands.

B) For Bluff: when we have a bluff, semi-bluff but we believe we can make Villain to fold a better hand

Either when we bet for Value or for Bluff we are betting to protect our ranges (the value range and the bluffing range).
Betting to extract information is a good way to burn chips away:
"Oh, let me bet here to see how Villain would react and then I fold on later streets"
It is a very exploitative way of playing and I simply don't love it and don't recomment it to anyone. Besides, experient players will note this behavior on our game, because this is a leak and will destroy us at the tables.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Yea, I also think that when you "bluff" and the reaction forces you to fold you placed a bet that delivered you some information. I am indifferent to the wording.


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I as well wouldn't recommend doing it all day to the point where it is costly. Like any bluff or bet timing is key.


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The main point I wanted to make was to get someone leaned towards getting information from a hand. Sticking to an ignorant bluff just because we should either "get value or bluff" seemed a little shallow.
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