$5 NLHE Full Ring: $ : Facing all in bet with Ace high board with KK

[takethepain]

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 20/12/40

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 20/12/40

Poker Stars - $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em (7 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $5.15
BB: $2
UTG: $1.60
MP: $13.22
MP+1: $12.55
CO Hero: $5
BTN: $3.91
Demon200978 - Sitting Out
mitiay5 - Sitting Out

Pre-flop: ($0.07) Hero is CO and dealt
UTG folds, MP raises to $0.20, MP+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.55, 3 folds, MP calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.17) (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.80, MP calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.77) (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.77) (2 players)
MP bets $3.55, Hero calls $3.55

I want to know if people think this was the right call? I've been attempting to think more about my opponents hand ranges, not only based off there pre-flop betting but also how they play postflop. I'm wondering how people feel what my opponents holdings most likely are and based on that, if I should have made that call.

Ill be happy to give my reasons for calling in a few posts times.

Villian seemed to be playing pretty solidly after 100 odd hands

 

[watchtowel]

I have heard the way ahead / way behind concept says that you should check flops like these because if he has an ace you are way behind and don't want to build a huge pot... Unless your' turn check made him think you were just cbetting a missed flop so he decides to bluff with a middle pair or something. I would be surprised if you were ahead here. Think it's a fold...

 

[WVHillbilly]

3bet bigger preflop.
Check the flop.
Fold the river. You need to be good about 37% of the time and you're not (even if you were this time).

 

[pokerman27]

Make it like 65c-70c preflop and the flop bet is pretty awful. Fold the river

 

[takethepain]

The problem with not c-betting the flop IMO, is that I am essentially saying, here, take this pot, it is yours. I can easily rep an Ace against a QQ or JJ type hand. Once he called that bet I was done with the hand, until his river bet made me very suspicious. By not betting the turn, I was saying what I would have if I checked the flop, I am scared of that ace, bet and it is yours.

With that in mind, why would he over-bet the pot on the river? If he knew I was scared of that ace, why bet so big? Certainly not for value. The only way that bet made sense to me was that he wanted me to fold, and if he wanted me to fold, I was surely ahead vs what he could have.

I would had folded to a smaller bet on the river for sure.

 

[WVHillbilly]

The problem with not c-betting the flop IMO, is that I am essentially saying, here, take this pot, it is yours. I can easily rep an Ace against a QQ or JJ type hand. Once he called that bet I was done with the hand, until his river bet made me very suspicious. By not betting the turn, I was saying what I would have if I checked the flop, I am scared of that ace, bet and it is yours.

With that in mind, why would he over-bet the pot on the river? If he knew I was scared of that ace, why bet so big? Certainly not for value. The only way that bet made sense to me was that he wanted me to fold, and if he wanted me to fold, I was surely ahead vs what he could have.

I would had folded to a smaller bet on the river for sure.

There are several logical problems with your post.

1. "I can easily rep an Ace against a QQ or JJ type hand." - Why would you want to rep an Ace? You beat QQ/JJ already. Do you want them to fold without putting any more $$ in the pot? Read this: https://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/?highlight=WA/WB

2. "The problem with not c-betting the flop IMO, is that I am essentially saying, here, take this pot, it is yours." - No, because you have position and can call a turn bet and reeval on the river. Position = Power. Use it.

3. "If he knew I was scared of that ace, why bet so big?" - Because he thought an overbet would be suspicious and you would call with less than TP? Because he failed to bet the turn with a big hand to try to get your whole stack and saw this as his last chance? Because he has TP and thinks you call overbets too lightly (you do btw). If you're routinely using this logic about calling big bets with less than big hands (relative to the board) you're going to get owned, A LOT.

Like I said when I posted originally you're not going to be good >37% of the time here and that means calling is a losing play. Just because it worked out this time (as I suspected when I read your OP) does NOT mean calling the river was right.

 

[baudib1]

Calling the river is really villain dependent, IMO.

and yeah I'd check behind flop almost all the time and be prepared to call one street later.

 

[pokerman27]

The problem with not c-betting the flop IMO, is that I am essentially saying, here, take this pot, it is yours. I can easily rep an Ace against a QQ or JJ type hand

This is a common mistake - when you bet it's because you want better hands to fold and weaker hands to call.

Give me a range that fulfils that on this flop? Why would you want QQ and JJ to fold, you have them crushed.

 

[acky100]

Make sure you check out that WA/WB concept WVH linked you to, i played these spots the same as you up until 10nl, (where WVH gave me the same link if i remember correctly) so if you can sort that out now you're at 5nl it's a massive leak fixed!

 

[baudib1]

I don't think it's horrendous to bet this flop with KK -- there is a flush draw plus a broadway draw and frankly, yes it is exploitable if we always have JJ-KK when we check back this board after 3-betting pre. I mean, it is much better to cbet with 77 here than KK and OP doesn't seem to quite get why we'd bet here but still, there is some value in it; 2nd pair is still pretty strong; I'd imagine most people would be for betting AQ on a KQx flop when checked to us most of the time.

Checking behind with JJ-KK is standard for me, but I'd check back AK a ton here, too. If it were A72r I'd check AK close to 100%.

 

[pokerman27]

I don't think it's horrendous to bet this flop with KK -- there is a flush draw plus a broadway draw and frankly, yes it is exploitable if we always have JJ-KK when we check back this board after 3-betting pre. I mean, it is much better to cbet with 77 here than KK and OP doesn't seem to quite get why we'd bet here but still, there is some value in it; 2nd pair is still pretty strong; I'd imagine most people would be for betting AQ on a KQx flop when checked to us most of the time.

Checking behind with JJ-KK is standard for me, but I'd check back AK a ton here, too. If it were A72r I'd check AK close to 100%.

I wouldn't be scared of being exploited all that often at $5NL. Until proven otherwise assume villain isn't looking to play our hand; only his.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I don't think it's horrendous to bet this flop with KK -- there is a flush draw plus a broadway draw and frankly, yes it is exploitable if we always have JJ-KK when we check back this board after 3-betting pre. I mean, it is much better to cbet with 77 here than KK and OP doesn't seem to quite get why we'd bet here but still, there is some value in it; 2nd pair is still pretty strong; I'd imagine most people would be for betting AQ on a KQx flop when checked to us most of the time.

Checking behind with JJ-KK is standard for me, but I'd check back AK a ton here, too. If it were A72r I'd check AK close to 100%.

I think it pretty bad considering he said the "Villian seemed to be playing pretty solidly after 100 odd hands". This leads me to believe we're not going to be getting called by less than TP too often and since he did flat a 3bet OOP he should have basically zero draws.

 

[baudib1]

ok, if he's playing solidly does that mean we should call river? because if he's solid he can probably hand-read somewhat and figure we don't have an Ace, also, his range contains a lot fewer Aces than most micro donks and he should have a bluff range....

 

[watchtowel]

I think most villains that are thinking at all could put you on a hand. When you 3bet preflop you are repping AQ+ and JJ+. It doesn't look like you have AK when you check the turn. At these stake most people won't lay down KK so I think he would bet big with an ace knowing that a lot of players wouldn't lay down big pairs.

If he is at least an ok player what would he bluff with here and what could he put you on that would fold to a river back? I think a good chunk of preflop 3bet ranges have either hit this flop or will make a crying call on the river.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Im quite happy to cbet the flop

Its 5NL so we expect his calling range to be wide, lots of BW hands

I dont expect JJ or QQ to fold to one bet either I can also get value from any ten that hit.

There are some FDs there are some GS etc

Standard cbet in a 3bet pot is 1/2 pot.


turn, c/f or c/c

I cant bet it for value, the only question is will villian bet it as a bluff?

river, C/f or c/c a small bet if he didnt bet the turn again you need a note saying he could bluff here, I think JJ or QQ are more likely to check back the river yet bet the turn putting you on the dreaded FD.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I think it pretty bad considering he said the "Villian seemed to be playing pretty solidly after 100 odd hands". This leads me to believe we're not going to be getting called by less than TP too often and since he did flat a 3bet OOP he should have basically zero draws.

TBH when a 5NL player tells me that another 5NL player was playing solidly I dont think necessarily think his definition of solid and my definition of solid are the same! Villain is 20/12.. that isnt solid!

He also calls a 3bet from MP1, I doubt hero 3bets wide enough for this to be good, I doubt its a hand like AA where MP is calling to let hero hang himself postflop. I think he calls wide enough here for me to get value on the flop.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Like I said when I posted originally you're not going to be good >37% of the time here and that means calling is a losing play. Just because it worked out this time (as I suspected when I read your OP) does NOT mean calling the river was right.

What compounds this is that villian was OOP when the turn was checked through. A lot of micro players like to CC flops and CR turns with monsters so his overbet could easily be for value here. If he were IP its far less likey he has a hand whne the turn checks through and then he overbets the river than when he checks the turn and you check it through.