$5 NLHE 6-max: Would you have folded this on Turn / River

L

luser94

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 23/20/2

PokerStars - ₹5 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 126.15 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 114.11 BB
CO: 111.86 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A:club: A:heart:

fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, BB calls 3 BB, fold

Flop: (9.4 BB, 2 players) T:spade: 9:heart: 6:heart:
BB checks, Hero bets 2.96 BB, BB calls 2.96 BB

Turn: (15.32 BB, 2 players) 2:club:
BB checks, Hero bets 8.54 BB, BB raises to 33 BB, Hero calls 24.46 BB

River: (81.32 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
BB bets 60.04 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 60.04 BB

BB shows T:diamond: T:club: (Three of a Kind, Tens)
(Pre 19%, Flop 87%, Turn 95%)
Hero shows A:club: A:heart: (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 81%, Flop 13%, Turn 5%)
BB wins 192.34 BB
 
teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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Bet bigger on the flop. A lot of draws out there.

It's hard to give up on the turn, but you definitely need to on the river. Sometimes flopped sets don't want to check raise right away, they save it for the turn... any hand getting that aggressive likely has you beat, unless villain can do this with some combo draws
 
vuk011

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Clasic flop cooler... There is no way to avoid this.
Maybe you can find the "fold" after that big 3bet shave but you must know your opponent perfectly. As far as I can see here you have no information about that player.
 
F

fundiver199

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Typically its not profitable to stack off an overpair in a single raised pot 100BB deep. So yes this is a spot, where you need to learn to fold. Maybe you get bluffed now and then, but so be it.
 
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Sidetracked

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I agree that a bigger flop cbet is called for. Lot's of straight draws that slam his calling range preflop.

As for folding an AA on that board, it's really really hard to do. If I'm playing my A game, I can find a fold. If I'm tilting, even a bit, I lose my stack on that hand.
 
Q

quant1986

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$5 NLHE 6-max: Would you have folded this on Turn / River

Flop can bet bigger, as played hard to get away but general micro stakes population turn check raise range is value heavy and you block A high flush draw.
 
V

Vlad Savchenko

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As many people have stated, a flop bet needs to be bigger.
Also when it comes to getting check/raised with a big overpair you really don't need to stack off all that often.
If the board was like J962X, and the river was a board-pairing card (aka offsuit 6 or 2) - then calling would make much more sense, because:
1. There's no straight possible, which limits his turn value range to sets and two pairs.
2. Rivered board pair reduces his value range even further, limiting it to 7-9 combos of sets.

And it's way better to lose to 7 combos, than to 9 sets + 4 straights + 2 two pairs = 15 reasonable combos that beat you (and if he can have T9o, 96s and 87o, this becomes a total disaster).
 
0815am

0815am

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Definitely bet flop bigger. So many draws that will pay for chasing. I am surprised to see him not raise that with a wide range. This board smacked his range but didn’t smack yours.

As played I find it harder to fold turn as your hands look weak given the Betsizing on flop/turn. On the river you have to fold. Not much you beat.
 
TheDude6622

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 23/20/2

PokerStars - ₹5 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 126.15 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 114.11 BB
CO: 111.86 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A A

fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, BB calls 3 BB, fold

Flop: (9.4 BB, 2 players) T 9 6
BB checks, Hero bets 2.96 BB, BB calls 2.96 BB

Turn: (15.32 BB, 2 players) 2
BB checks, Hero bets 8.54 BB, BB raises to 33 BB, Hero calls 24.46 BB

River: (81.32 BB, 2 players) 4
BB bets 60.04 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 60.04 BB

BB shows T T (Three of a Kind, Tens)
(Pre 19%, Flop 87%, Turn 95%)
Hero shows A A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 81%, Flop 13%, Turn 5%)
BB wins 192.34 BB

The check call on the turn scares me. The huge over-bet on the river shows they know you are holding something strong. It's such a tough move to fold the best pair on a no draw board, but sometimes we do find that fold.

The bet on the flop and the turn seem legit. You have to extract value from your holding, especially when you think it's best.
 
I

Ianmacca99

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As others have said a bigger flop size is required it's a fairly connected board with lots of draws you can get value from

The turn is a brick so with this size raise I'm putting my opponent on all the sets, 87 for the straight or possibly 10 9 but think he's raising the flop with that as that's a vulnerable hand.

You have the ace of hearts so what flushdraw bluffs does he have in this spot.

Think you can look to let this go and I know it sucks folding aces but its still only a one pair hand stacking off with a 1 pair hand can never be good IMO it's crushed v what he is repping. Like fundiver said you might be getting bluffed now and then but they will mainly have it here
 
C

c0rnBr34d

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I wouldn't include results in the initial post. A lot of posters will say you should have folded when they see you are beat. A lot of those same posters would have called and lost too had they not seen results. Let them make the same decision you had to make.

As for the hand. The flop is wet so we need to size up. Once we get action on the flop the turn should also be more than 1/2 pot in my opinion. When we double barrel with strength and get raised try to remember The Beluga Whale Theorem. We have shown nothing but strength pre, flop, and turn, and still got check raised big. We are drawing dead to straights and very thin to sets. We are also in bad shape vs 2 pair hands. If you have history with this V and know them to be a super LAG or maniac then you can make a stand with overpairs, against the normal population fold turn to the huge check raise.
 
Aballinamion

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BTN x BB defense

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 23/20/2

PokerStars - ₹5 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 126.15 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 114.11 BB
CO: 111.86 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A A

fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, BB calls 3 BB, fold

Flop: (9.4 BB, 2 players) T 9 6
BB checks, Hero bets 2.96 BB, BB calls 2.96 BB

Turn: (15.32 BB, 2 players) 2
BB checks, Hero bets 8.54 BB, BB raises to 33 BB, Hero calls 24.46 BB

River: (81.32 BB, 2 players) 4
BB bets 60.04 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 60.04 BB

BB shows T T (Three of a Kind, Tens)
(Pre 19%, Flop 87%, Turn 95%)
Hero shows A A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 81%, Flop 13%, Turn 5%)
BB wins 192.34 BB

Hello there, good evening luser94 (brazil hour), thank you very much for sharing your hand with the CardsChat community. We love poker and it's our pleasure to try to help others and also learn a lot from others by putting into theory some things that we do at the tables.
Without further due, let's jump into the action. First of all you say that Villain stats are VPIP23 PFR 20and AF 2. This is very important. But which sample size of hands do you have with this player? I believe it is good information if you have at least a 100 hands of HUD sample to display. Otherwise this information could be blurry or even wrong.
IT was a Zoom Table or a Regular table? Because at regular tables our perceived image can affect a little bit more the playability much more than Zoom tables, because we are folding and not following every hand played by everyone, as it happens at regular tables.
However, I would classify this Villain type as a Bad Regular, or a Weak Tight Aggressive player. Pay close attention to the aggresion factor of 2, because this is a sign of passivity POSTFLOP (he will be betting and raising, mostly, VALUES, he will have a very, very few bluffs in his postflop range).
That being said, I find great that you decided to raise from the BTN against a recreational player in the CO, deep stacked, who decided to limp behind. Having information that either the player in the SB or the player in the BB is also a recreational, I would recomend you to make an even high Preflop Raise Versus 1 Limper: 5x, 6x. with 20% of the best hands that comes to Hero in the BTN, for example:

22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, ATo+, KQo (20%)

We can raise even a wider range (30% more versus limpers) when we have the BTN, and as long as we have 60%, 70%, 80% chance of Passive will call, I see no reason at all to make balanced plays as we do against Regulars. But your 4x is just fine for your 20% who raises limpers from the BTN (not only AA, AK e KK).

What is very strange is when the player in the BB decides to call you in a spot like that. The logic reason will be because of the limper behind in the CO, but even so, it is a very high price, and most of times the player in the Big Blind will have no such odds to call right off the bat (80% fold).
So, when the player in the BB callls you to play out of position, possibily versus 2 players, both deep stacked, we have to give him some credit, after all, the guy is a regular, but not such a good one. He is calling with a very decent range, a range that could be easily 3betting light the BTN.
It is very strange to say but it is a breakeven situation. The player in the BB will have a strong range as the BTN, nearly 20% of hands both for Button and the Big Blind.

Pot Size: 9.4 BB
Flop: T♠ 9 6


Here I like your C-bet, your range tends to be a little bit stronger than the Big Blind's calling range, but the Check could be also a line. Hero in the Button is in the top of his Range with Pocket Aces and Back Door nut flush, so this hand doesn't need too much protection. The Check is good because allows the player in the Big Blind to try to overplay Hero in position, and both Check-Raise and Check-Call are good lines, since the Ranges are so close at this moment.
However, the bet is also fine, because it is a bet for value and players like that will call with a lot of stuff in a situation like that where Hero bets 2.96 BB's. You also could unbalance your range having this flop texture because BB's range will continue with a lot of stuff here:
Any Tx, or 9x will not fold right now, T9, J9, Q9, K9, etc, are calling because we give great odds to Villain when we bet only 2.96 BB in a pot of 9.4, which are very drawie and connected to the BB's Range. 1/2 Pot could work good here as well. Even more depending on how much information you have of the player on how passive he tends to play postflop.
The Aggression Factor of 2 indicates that he tends to call a lot, this is good and this is why, if you decide to bet you can vary your size based on several factors.
Any 8 of hearts will be calling this bet here. 7h5h, QJo, QJs, any Jack with a heart, any two hearts and heavy value hands could also be calling here such as 87s, 66, 99, TT. So, when you bet small you give great odds for a Flop that hits a lot BB's range to complete its equity for a cheap price in the Turn.

Turn: (15.32 BB, 2 players) 2♣
BB checks, Hero bets 8.54 BB, BB raises to 33 BB, Hero calls 24.46 BB

Here my friend, I start to feel my stomach hurts a lot. It is very clear that the player in the BB will not have a lot of Pocket 2's in his range. Those would have folded to a C-Bet Flop almost 100% of times. And this player is not the loose type, he is a tight aggresive, so his range is stronger when he calls you out of odds Preflop and in a heavy connected board in the flop. Show a lot of strength.
However if I am in Hero's shoes right now, I would certainly be firing a double barrel an many Turns such as 2x, 3x, 4x, etc, Turns that not connect with a Straight or a Flush (if comes another heart in the Turn would you feel comfortable to send another barrel, having info that Villain will never fold any kind of Flush?).
It is not the case, the Deuce of Clubs is very good for the Button's Range to fire here, and it seems the size is fine. But, considering the board is very connected yet it is a good ideia to bet, and it is not.
Remember that you have only a pocket pair in a board that many rivers will crush you and kill your actions such as double pair, another heart, because having the blocker of the Flush Nuts at 5 NLHE means nothing, players will never fold any flush here, and summarizing, you will only be paid and raised by hands that destroy you.
So when you check the Turn you give a chance for Villain to show its range either by checking or betting and also controlling the pot in a board that we will be outplayed several times.
So, when you bet Turn and this guy raises Check-Raises you, it is a CLEAR FOLD! Yes, my friend, this guy doesn't have too many bluffs right now. The Pocket Aces cannot improve anymore unless it comes an Ace in the River giving a Set. However, even if the Big Blind player was bluffing us, it would have hands with decent equity that could also destroy the AA in the River.
This call is not so good, because as I told before, Aggression Factor of 2 indicates passivity and this guy is never bluffing here, when it check-raises you, given the whole preflop scenario BB will show:

A Flush Draw with Straight Draw (with a Jack of hearts, 7h and 8h for example)
A straight with 87s that could also contain the Back Door Straight Flush
A set with 66, 99, TT
Two Pair T9s, T9o (not so much combos he will not have a lot of 96o or 96s but 97s or better)

So we see that in this scenario Big Blind will have much more value hands than bluffs, and even if it has some bluffs are good ones. Would you believe it was trying to bluff you with KQs? QJs? We can't see many bluffs at this range at this moment so, as long as the pot is out of control, the player is a massive passive player, either the Check-Call for folding to another River aggresion as the Check-Fold would be good lines here.
I tremble when I see a passive player, specially one with some regular aspects to check-raise Turn. Remember Baluga Theorem:

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/theorems/baluga/

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Aballinamion

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Amazing!

I wouldn't include results in the initial post. A lot of posters will say you should have folded when they see you are beat. A lot of those same posters would have called and lost too had they not seen results. Let them make the same decision you had to make.

As for the hand. The flop is wet so we need to size up. Once we get action on the flop the turn should also be more than 1/2 pot in my opinion. When we double barrel with strength and get raised try to remember The Beluga Whale Theorem. We have shown nothing but strength pre, flop, and turn, and still got check raised big. We are drawing dead to straights and very thin to sets. We are also in bad shape vs 2 pair hands. If you have history with this V and know them to be a super LAG or maniac then you can make a stand with overpairs, against the normal population fold turn to the huge check raise.

Thanks for your explanation and words. Very wise what you just have said. From now on, I will stop posting hands with results and only until the critical moment of decision, because in fact, indeed, changes a lot the general thoughts of the population when others are able to see the result and the hand. Great Job.
I tried to quote everybody who wrote in this post, because most of you told that it is better to bet more in a board like that and so on, so I tried to analyse this and put some of my personal ideias.
Once again, we are glad to have you here at the CardsChat community!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
eetenor

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 23/20/2

PokerStars - ₹5 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 126.15 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 114.11 BB
CO: 111.86 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A A

fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, BB calls 3 BB, fold

Flop: (9.4 BB, 2 players) T 9 6
BB checks, Hero bets 2.96 BB, BB calls 2.96 BB

Turn: (15.32 BB, 2 players) 2
BB checks, Hero bets 8.54 BB, BB raises to 33 BB, Hero calls 24.46 BB

River: (81.32 BB, 2 players) 4
BB bets 60.04 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 60.04 BB

BB shows T T (Three of a Kind, Tens)
(Pre 19%, Flop 87%, Turn 95%)
Hero shows A A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 81%, Flop 13%, Turn 5%)
BB wins 192.34 BB

Than U 4 Posting.

I disagree with sizing up in this spot. When we do that what happens?
We get most weak hands to fold and all stronger hands to continue. Why would we want to do that on this flop? Why do we want 65 to fold?

Look at the flop 10s 9h 6h

Our villains range can be 1010 (it was) 99 66 87 109 96 8h7h QhJH KhQh KhJh Jh8h Qh8h 7h5h 8h5h Jh10h Kh10h Qh10h 10h8h 10h7h

None of this folds, to what most villains would think is a large protection bet from an over pair. Which they can then get max value from when they hit exactly as happened here. As the villain hit the flop.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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