$5 NLHE 6-max: Top Pair Good Kicker with multiple players behind

[JimmyBrizzy]

Is a fold too weak here with 4 players left to act behind? Calling seems like an option, just need some thoughts.

Stats below are vpip/pfr/afs (# of hands)
PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 65.6 BB - 24/14
BTN: 239.2 BB - 41/3/2 (94)
SB: 76 BB - 33/4/1 (162)
BB: 74.2 BB - 63/24/2 (157)
Hero (UTG): 180.4 BB
MP: 69.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K♠ Q♦

Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.6 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (15 BB, 5 players) 8♣ 3♥ 9♥
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: (15 BB, 5 players) K♦
SB checks, BB bets 7.2 BB, hero....

 

[gustav197poker]

Possibly an exploitative fold for NL5. In any case, an effective stack of 65.6 bb in CO could imply a high fold equity for said player, on a semi-wet board and with failed combined draws on the turn. The same reasoning could be assumed with respect to V3 (SB), so it is not too far-fetched to think of a reduction in active hands for this pot. But, we have also 2 remaining positions of which the BB is the one that initiates the aggression on the turn with a bet of 50% of the pot.
If we think in terms of ranges, here we are below Kxs that impacted this texture. However, we are blocking 62.5% of such combos. So there are still phantom hands in the V ranks, such as sets or minor scales like 8-9. Honestly the hand samples you have accumulated on the villains are too small. Therefore, we cannot achieve a consistent observation with these stats. In this turn we need to call 1 in 4 times so that our continuation is profitable in the long term. Undoubtedly, your fold in the turn was a tighter decision, but in the micro stakes ecosystem it maybe the most justified alternative in this place.
Greetings.

 

[Aballinamion]

Is a fold too weak here with 4 players left to act behind? Calling seems like an option, just need some thoughts.

Stats below are vpip/pfr/afs (# of hands)
PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 65.6 BB - 24/14
BTN: 239.2 BB - 41/3/2 (94)
SB: 76 BB - 33/4/1 (162)
BB: 74.2 BB - 63/24/2 (157)
Hero (UTG): 180.4 BB
MP: 69.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K♠ Q♦

Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.6 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (15 BB, 5 players) 8♣ 3♥ 9♥
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: (15 BB, 5 players) K♦
SB checks, BB bets 7.2 BB, hero....

At least complicated decision. We have the option to be raising the player in the Big Blind, because we don't expect many AK on BB's range. We also assume BB must have a capped range, because strong holdings such as 98, 99, 88 and 33 would be betting the flop almost 100% of times for protection.

We cannot be folding yet OTT, because our hands are still very strong and BB can have a lot of bluffs on its calling range, such as flush and straight draws.
Yes, BB can have K9 and K8 but we are blocking quite a great chunk of that and in the case the river isn't good or the opponent in the BB elects to bet again, we have position to make the best choice.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[JimmyBrizzy]

Thanks Carlos. My thought process was that while the BB is a total fish, I don't think he leads out on the turn without something relatively strong. There are still 4 other players involved in the hand so I beat KJ/K10 and draws. I was against raising because I didn't want to bloat the pot, and there are still a lot of players after me to act.


I don't know if I agree with the thinking that players bet 100% of the flop with 2 pair or set, especially pertaining to the SB and BB. I have definitely checked in somewhat similar situations at 5NL with a set and multiple players left to act with the hope of inducing more action (maybe not on this type of board), but this could be a leak of mine. I feel like there is a higher chance that someone like the SB or BB checks the flop with a set or two pair, because I have done that in the past (maybe not on this type of board, but from my small sample size these particular players don't seem all that great).

"Possibly an exploitative fold for NL5." can you explain what that means? I'm assuming it means by me folding hands like this it would be a leak others can spot, but I wanted to clarify.

 

[gustav197poker]

Thanks Carlos. My thought process was that while the BB is a total fish, I don't think he leads out on the turn without something relatively strong. There are still 4 other players involved in the hand so I beat KJ/K10 and draws. I was against raising because I didn't want to bloat the pot, and there are still a lot of players after me to act.


I don't know if I agree with the thinking that players bet 100% of the flop with 2 pair or set, especially pertaining to the SB and BB. I have definitely checked in somewhat similar situations at 5NL with a set and multiple players left to act with the hope of inducing more action (maybe not on this type of board), but this could be a leak of mine. I feel like there is a higher chance that someone like the SB or BB checks the flop with a set or two pair, because I have done that in the past (maybe not on this type of board, but from my small sample size these particular players don't seem all that great).

"Possibly an exploitative fold for NL5." can you explain what that means? I'm assuming it means by me folding hands like this it would be a leak others can spot, but I wanted to clarify.

If you consider that BB does not have bluffs in his range, the fold on the turn is based on a super tight decision. But if you think that this action on your part represents a leak, that in the future rivals could exploit, I cannot disagree with your thinking.

 

[Aballinamion]

Thanks Carlos. My thought process was that while the BB is a total fish, I don't think he leads out on the turn without something relatively strong. There are still 4 other players involved in the hand so I beat KJ/K10 and draws. I was against raising because I didn't want to bloat the pot, and there are still a lot of players after me to act.


I don't know if I agree with the thinking that players bet 100% of the flop with 2 pair or set, especially pertaining to the SB and BB. I have definitely checked in somewhat similar situations at 5NL with a set and multiple players left to act with the hope of inducing more action (maybe not on this type of board), but this could be a leak of mine. I feel like there is a higher chance that someone like the SB or BB checks the flop with a set or two pair, because I have done that in the past (maybe not on this type of board, but from my small sample size these particular players don't seem all that great).

"Possibly an exploitative fold for NL5." can you explain what that means? I'm assuming it means by me folding hands like this it would be a leak others can spot, but I wanted to clarify.

Sorry, I didn't mean 100% of times, but in a very high frequency in flops that are drawie/connected/wet/etc.

The other question is complicated, because if we look down to the pot odds we have much more than necessary for calling and sometimes raising, because in these types of Turn configuration, BB can present enough draws on its range that might justify we putting chips into the pot.

And you are right, players at 2 NLHE and 5 NLHE, even the fishes, uses to play high value and if I really have the note that the guy is the famous "polarized only for value" case, with an aggression factor varying from 0 to 2, I can fold this TP2K/TPSK from time to time, because we are out of position.

This question is very good and complicated because we are out of position. If there was no one else behind us left to act it would be a very calm call. Now we must consider that for the times we are calling, we are already losing a couple of them, because one of the players in position can raise and depending on the case we cannot go further with your Top Pairs types.

Another point to observe is that by calling, we make the odds for players in position much better, and they are going to call more, turning the value of our holding, weaker.

Plus all of that, let's consider what are we going to do OTR, in the case we call and players in position all fold, and BB comes betting 1/2 pot, 2/3 pot, 100% pot, overbetting the pot, pushing, what are we going to do?
In the case we call and one of the players in position calls and BB bets 1/2 pot are we happy calling?

This is why looking only to the mathematical side of the thing can lead us into infinite mistakes, because there are so many factors that pot odds cannot simply clarify and we must take those into consideration before putting money into the pot.
Thanks for the input, have a nice day.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Dkerridge14]

Possibly an exploitative fold for NL5. In any case, an effective stack of 65.6 bb in CO could imply a high fold equity for said player, on a semi-wet board and with failed combined draws on the turn. The same reasoning could be assumed with respect to V3 (SB), so it is not too far-fetched to think of a reduction in active hands for this pot. But, we have also 2 remaining positions of which the BB is the one that initiates the aggression on the turn with a bet of 50% of the pot.
If we think in terms of ranges, here we are below Kxs that impacted this texture. However, we are blocking 62.5% of such combos. So there are still phantom hands in the V ranks, such as sets or minor scales like 8-9. Honestly the hand samples you have accumulated on the villains are too small. Therefore, we cannot achieve a consistent observation with these stats. In this turn we need to call 1 in 4 times so that our continuation is profitable in the long term. Undoubtedly, your fold in the turn was a tighter decision, but in the micro stakes ecosystem it maybe the most justified alternative in this place.
Greetings.

I think a lot of the time here it is a fold due to the number of players remaining in the pot. It’s going to be difficult to get to show down with this hand and could lead you into a fair few troubling spots. Better of folding and moving on

 

[gustav197poker]

I think a lot of the time here it is a fold due to the number of players remaining in the pot. It’s going to be difficult to get to show down with this hand and could lead you into a fair few troubling spots. Better of folding and moving on

I think that in this particular case we could charge a very high price to the limpers that decided to enter the pot, just out of curiosity. The advantage is that they are all shorts stacks except for the BTN. I think we can make a blocking bet on this turn. In addition, many players are at their SPR limit, so in this place the pressure that we can exert is of utmost importance. We can even charge for many broken draws.

 

[makisaa]

A call is a good option here! You have the top pair and also one of the two bigger stacks at this table. A qween would be welcome at the river!

 

[pokeherface]

I think its too nitty generally im calling tpgk on this turn
im only ever folding this strong of a hand if I call and someone raises or if a scarier card comes on the river and he bets again this could be just a strong draw
(KTs JTs 67s ATs) there is more but I won't say them all we dont block any flush draws either which is a good thing
he can of course have sets and two pair but im not worried about it just yet
I like how your thinking but IMO we should not be folding to one bet here with this strength of a hand even if it is mw

 

[freddydr87]

I would have called the Turn and see wath he does in river because he could have a worse Tpair. But in a multiway pot unlless you have notes off bb been a maniac no one bluffes there,he could be beating you with 89 aor even K8,K9 or sets off 88,99.
No one donks with a set and iff he has it he waith some one bet and as any body bet he is doing it now on turn.
Onestlly bouth desitions are ok or fold or call,he could be overvaleuwing a Tpair with wek kicker there are a lot off draws and he maith wanth to protect his pair from a draw.