$5 NLHE 6-max: Should we check behind this turn BvB?

teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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Just thinking of ways to play this better. Dude never has a flush, but he'd check a weak ace (that's better than ours) turn and bet out river. Is it worth it to wait and decide river?

Not sure how many Tx hands he is betting flop. V is 22/18/1 over 177 hands. 30% ATS.

Yatahay Network - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 190 BB
CO: 111.2 BB
BTN: 101 BB
SB: 218.6 BB
Hero (BB): 127.4 BB
UTG: 105 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 3:diamond: A:diamond:

fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) T:diamond: 4:spade: A:heart:
SB bets 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB

Turn: (12 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond:
SB checks, Hero bets 4.4 BB, fold

Hero wins 11.4 BB
 
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c0rnBr34d

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I like your line here. Could discuss 3 betting pre vs a wide SB range but that's about it. Probably better not to bloat the pot in BvB wars with a weak suited Ace unless we think we have an edge post flop. Sometimes they cant call. That's fine, take it down. It's better than giving free cards and them hitting two pair or a gutter ball or something. We have to bet for all the times he calls with Tx or Ax or a smaller flush draw or JJ-KK. Can't hit a home run every at bat.
 
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Mercurius

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Agree with the line, don't bet the flop as you're getting calls from better aces and not much else.

I'd have sized up on the turn bet (even though this got through). Here he clearly didn't have an ace and so folded, but what if he had a better ace (which essentially any ace is in this case)? Your 1/3 pot bet isnt getting him to fold and you're behind so it's not a great outcome. If you size up to maybe 2/3rd pot you probably get folds from all non-broadway aces (except the AT,A7,A4), so you roughly halve the Aces coming to the river.

To me this becomes a better bet size as it is folding some of the range that has you beat, and while you will obviously get calls from better hands, you have decent equity to hit the nuts on the river.

If you hit on the river, you can then size down and put them in a really tough spot - you can size down to 1/3 pot which would be c10BBs into a pot of c30BBs and it becomes very hard for a AQ/AK/AT etc to fold here - even at half pot it's tough for them.

You've therefore extracted c20BBs from hitting your flush (8BB turn bet and 10-15BB river), had some decent fold equity from the weaker Aces that have you beat, and can walk away to a big bet on the river if you miss (but likely you see a check unless they are very strong).

On your bet sizing you'd have got 4.4BBs on the turn and it's a much easier fold on the river for them when a diamond comes and you try to size up for value.
 
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atcj13

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I don't think that I like betting on the turn here. Their check is very polarized here. Based on the fact we didn't 3bet, they likely can't get 3 streets of value with sets or two pairs. By betting we are giving away value to hands that are already beating us. If they are c-betting with air, we deny ourselves a chance to get value if he bluffs the river. If our opponent is behind they have at best 5 outs. Some of those are dead outs as we make our flush when they make their hand. Plus we are denying them a chance to bluff the river. Based on the way the board is layed out, he will frequently have blockers to straights coming in on the river. If a broadway card comes on the river they may even try to get thin value against a 10.
 
teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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Can't hit a home run every at bat.

Ain't that the truth!

I like Mercurius' line too, pretty logical. It allows us to be aggressive wit ha pay off when he calls with better.

Thanks all. I've been struggling at 5nl (basically break even after 30,000 hands- I thought I was crushing for the first 15,000, almost moved to 10nl :( ) but clearly I have a lot more to work on with BvB battles, Btn vs blinds and other spots as well.;)
 
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Ain't that the truth!

I like Mercurius' line too, pretty logical. It allows us to be aggressive wit ha pay off when he calls with better.

Thanks all. I've been struggling at 5nl (basically break even after 30,000 hands- I thought I was crushing for the first 15,000, almost moved to 10nl :( ) but clearly I have a lot more to work on with BvB battles, Btn vs blinds and other spots as well.;)


Chin up mate - often times you can overthink it and try to apply too much strategy to it all. It's great doing these post-mortems on hands to improve and get other people's thinking, but ultimately I think 5NL/10NL is beatable if you just focus on rinsing the fish rather than playing like Phil Ivey.

Some super simple tips (not how I always play but good rules of thumb / gut feel) - not necessarily "correct" poker, but you can weave in little bits of skill as you go. Don't worry about BvB techniques etc - it's good to learn for later but just focus on playing good hands in position and letting the money come to you rather than chasing it.
  1. If they're being very aggressive over multiple streets they probably have you (unless you have set/straight/flush - see point 6)
  2. Never stack off with TPTK (unless you've found a total whale)
  3. Never get all in PF other than KK/AA - 3bet and then call off 4 bets with JJ/QQ/AKs
  4. Focus on identifying "player types" - play 1 or 2 tables max - check out polished poker in the main cash sticky here if you haven't already - ultimately it boils down to good players (avoid) and fish (either over aggressive because they heard 'aggression is key'; or over folders)
  5. 3bet and Cbet the overfolders to death (but be ready to give up when they push back)
  6. Passively call down the aggro players (particularly playing in position against them) when you have sets, straights and flushes (or draws to the nuts), giving them a min re-raise on the turn or river so they have enough rope to hang themselves (usually the small raise tilt's them and you get a shove back when you have the nuts....)
I'd say 75% of my play is break even, including a lot of folding and a lot of calling down light where the betting isn't too aggressive. But the other 25% is literally people at 10NL trying to bluff with air or betting AK for 1/2 pot over 3 streets when it's missed the board and you get their stack gift wrapped

The above are basic building blocks but you can see how you can then add the "proper poker" on top (e.g. slowly getting comfortable 4bet bluffing with A4s/A5s when you know how to spot an aggro player 3 betting light, but also having the discipline to muck that hand if they come back over you), thinking about bet sizing / lines etc
 
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I don't think that I like betting on the turn here. Their check is very polarized here. Based on the fact we didn't 3bet, they likely can't get 3 streets of value with sets or two pairs. By betting we are giving away value to hands that are already beating us. If they are c-betting with air, we deny ourselves a chance to get value if he bluffs the river. If our opponent is behind they have at best 5 outs. Some of those are dead outs as we make our flush when they make their hand. Plus we are denying them a chance to bluff the river. Based on the way the board is layed out, he will frequently have blockers to straights coming in on the river. If a broadway card comes on the river they may even try to get thin value against a 10.


If they are polarized that'd make me even more inclined to bet in this spot - you're taking down the pot a decent amount of the time and where they are very strong you still have decent equity to hit the nuts. If you check and then hit the flush on the river it's going to be hard extracting value as you're playing face up
 
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atcj13

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If they are polarized that'd make me even more inclined to bet in this spot - you're taking down the pot a decent amount of the time and where they are very strong you still have decent equity to hit the nuts. If you check and then hit the flush on the river it's going to be hard extracting value as you're playing face up

Interesting. What sizing would you use and how are you responding to check raises or river leads?
 
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Mercurius

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Interesting. What sizing would you use and how are you responding to check raises or river leads?


Initial feel is that I'd look to bet 2/3 pot (8BB) on the turn as mentioned above - likely folds out the non-broadway aces that beat us (e.g A5,A6,A8,A9).

What is he check raising with here? AK/AQ and Axs making the 2-pair (e.g. A7s) plus sets? It's not a huge range of combos and I think some of these just call a portion of the time.

I'd be happy calling up to say a 3x re-raise (24BB) as my pot odds on the call are 16BB into 44BB (so I need c.25% equity which I'm ahead of even against the top part of their range that they'd continue with - assuming continuation range of {Sets, Ax 2-pairs and KQd/KJd} - not to mention we're significantly ahead if the raise is a final stab with KK/QQ/JJ).

The river becomes pretty binary - if we hit then we maximise value, if we miss it totally depends on their lead sizing but ultimately if they're leading into us for a decent amount having called or check raised on the turn more there are very very few bluffs in their range (low aces they are bluffing with; KK/QQ/JJ which I'm excluding from their range as the ace and our line forces them to give those up; or the KQ/KJd if the straight misses).

With the implied odds on the river if we hit the flush draw we're getting paid off at odds way better than our equity in the hand so I think we're fine here - yeah it sucks to miss and get pushed off on the river but it's tough for them to do given the line taken unless they have the nuts in which case I'm fine making a good fold on the river when I have 0% equity.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Just thinking of ways to play this better. Dude never has a flush, but he'd check a weak ace (that's better than ours) turn and bet out river. Is it worth it to wait and decide river?

Not sure how many Tx hands he is betting flop. V is 22/18/1 over 177 hands. 30% ATS.

Yatahay Network - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 190 BB
CO: 111.2 BB
BTN: 101 BB
SB: 218.6 BB
Hero (BB): 127.4 BB
UTG: 105 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 3 A

fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) T 4 A
SB bets 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB

Turn: (12 BB, 2 players) 7
SB checks, Hero bets 4.4 BB, fold

Hero wins 11.4 BB

Versus SB's opening ranges, I like to be 3-betting more often than cold calling all the suited aces, except ATs+. From ATs+ I am also 3-betting preflop, but I am calling more than 3-betting to protect my huge calling range.
Having said that, we got a lot of equity Flop/Turn and I believe you played the hand fine. The check OTT is an option too, because we are drawing for a lot of good stuff and perhaps you keep the weaker rank of Villain on such as Tx, 4x, whatever.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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