$5 NLHE 6-max: Ov.Pair on dry board... we callin here?

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teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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BTN: 207.8 BB
SB: 213.2 BB
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 105.8 BB
CO: 38.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:heart: K:club:

fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 6 BB

Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) 2:heart: Q:diamond: 4:spade:
SB checks, Hero bets 9 BB, SB calls 9 BB

Turn: (36 BB, 2 players) 4:diamond:
SB checks, Hero bets 18 BB, SB raises to 90 BB, Hero calls 64 BB and is all-in

God help me
 
Jon Poker

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Our hand is too strong to fold. If our villan called us with 22 or A4s and got lucky - good for them. I would expect QQ to 4bet us preflop, AA should ALWAYS be doing this as well but some players are not doing such, so it's possible - again good for them if they blinked the two outter or slow played AA. I think we run into a spazzy JJ and Qx hands a TON - AQ would certainly take this line pre and post. Anytime we play these games we should be well bank rolled for these spots. I think this is an easy call off with the KK. Board is just too dry and our hand is just too strong to fold.
 
Aballinamion

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BB 3bet range x SB Cold Calling range

BTN: 207.8 BB
SB: 213.2 BB
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 105.8 BB
CO: 38.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K K

fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 6 BB

Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) 2 Q 4
SB checks, Hero bets 9 BB, SB calls 9 BB

Turn: (36 BB, 2 players) 4
SB checks, Hero bets 18 BB, SB raises to 90 BB, Hero calls 64 BB and is all-in

God help me

Hi there teh_colonel_saigon good morning, thank you for sharing your hands with the CardsChat community! Very good one.
First, we have in mind a default vision of how are the ranges of SB and BB when it comes in gap to SB: pretty wide opening/3betting range for steal.
However, as John A said, we have no information of the villain in the SB, the only thing we know is that the player is deep stacked and cold called 3bet out of position.
We should also consider this is a 5 NLHE, and many players have no ideia of what they are doing.
I picture a SB's stealing range x BB as pretty wide, but when it comes a BB 3bet we know it that SB cannot continue with a lot of junk, so SB is going to narrow its range quite a bit.
Many players, including me, don't like to cold 4bet the medium-strong portion of the range, which might include some QQ, JJ, TT, 99 and some medium-strong broadways such as KJs, KQs, some players will call a 3bet here (and 4bet), with a lot of suited aces and so on.
I don't love to 4bet QQ-JJ at the micros because most of times we are already commited to the pot preflop and forced to call a 5bet/shove later, to have a flip coin in the best case scenario.
Now, in a scenario like that, it is very important to consider which type of player we are facing in, before making a 1/2 pot C-bet, because:

A) This is a 3bet pot, so the playability postflop changes a little, and also our sizing. Against a recreational player I wouldn't mind betting 1/2 pot here. Against a NIT I would never C-bet here! Against a TAG I would C-bet 1/3 pot, against aggro donkeys also check flop because they are going to bluff me with a lot of Qx here and their overpairs such as JJ and TT.

B) The flop comes very dry, so when we bet 1/2 pot we don't have too much bluffs here. I find hard to believe that a regular would be 3betting for steal BB x SB hands such as Q4s or Q2s. (Would you?)

C) Our 3bet light range here will contain a lot of Qx combos such as AQ, KQ, QJ and even QT, but villain would also have a lot of Qx in its range too, because it is a very close spot. Once in a lifetime SB and BB will show hands as KK and AA in a 3bet pot situation BB x SB.

I know I can be pretty criticized here, but lookin to our 3bet range of BB x SB we have a pretty wide one and once in a while we should be checking here. We gotta ask ourselves: which hands SB could cold call 3bet and calls a 1/2 pot C-bet in a very dry board?
I agree with Jon Poker here, many weak player will have AQ here and play it like the nuts.
I see that everyday at the micros: players look a dry low board and when they have any strong pocket pair or a TPTK they decide to put all the chips in the middle! They don't even consider if it is a 3bet pot, 4bet pot, the board texture....:eek:


So, let's look to the action as a whole, 1) we 3bet 3x preflop in position, 2) we C-bet 1/2 pot flop and, 3) we C-bet 1/2 pot turn. We are going to put our Villain all-in either Turn or River, otherwise we wouldn't make the pot grow so fast here, we have position and we have initiative because we have made a 3bet preflop.
It is very clear for the SB that we have a very strong hand here. TT, JJ could be checking either flop or turn for pot control and because SB will have a lot of Qx in its range that could be beating this part of BB's range.
If BB had A2s or A4 suited it also could be a check on the turn. A2 because it lost its showdown value and A4 because it would be a very strong hand against SB's 3bet calling range. (trips of 4's).
Well, having information of how weak players are postflop at 5 NLHE, I will not be scared at all if somebody decided to Cold Call 3bet here with 22, A4, QQ and AA, which are the only hands that could be beating BB's range right now.
It is complicated tough because there aren't too many bluffs or floats in SB's range right now. It is a very close and hard spot:

A) We know that many players at 5 NLHE would never fold TPTK here (AQ), and could easily go all in. We also know that some players will continue with JJ, TT and 99, ignoring the board completely. Good!

B) We know that many players at 5 NLHE have no bluffing range like that! When they check-raise turn, dry board like that, we only need to remember Baluga Theorem and fold, because this move (check-raise all-in turn) doesn't make any sense, given board texture.
What do we believe here? The hands that we are beating are only the AQ, KQ and SB doesn't have a lot of KQ here, because of the card removal, and it is hard to believe that even a whale could be shoving turn with dominated Queens such as QJ or QT or JJ-TT.
If we dream too much we might find some cute semi-bluffs here such as 2 diamonds+Top Pair that could be doing it, even so, very, very rare to see it. ;)

C) The result of the hand does'nt matter, thank you for hidding it. Because there are only two possible scenarios here: We call and we are destroying SB's range with some AQ or a crazy flush draw that it decided to float or;

C1) We call a shove turn and we are dominated by 22, QQ, A4 and AA. :(

In both cases, no matter the result, all we have to do is put a note in the player of how it played the way it played preflop and postflop and move on. :D
IMO, giving that many players have no ideia of what they are doing at the cash tables (micro stakes), I would simply control the pot and fold postflop to some ludicrous aggression such as this one, depending on how much information I have on the villain.
Given that we are virtually only beating AQ and random bluffs, I believe that check-raise all in turn puts more values than bluffs in V's range. Because of it, I would fold most of times and only call here against very weak players that I already have notes.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
liuouhgkres

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Be default it's call, but it can be fold against some nitty opponents, especially at low stakes.
 
0815am

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In BvB this is definitely a call for me. He could be doing this with AQ/KQ and of course 22/44/A4s/QQ/AA
We are behind 3 combos of 22, 1 of 44, 1 of QQ, 2A4s, 1 AA(other combos to usually 4B). Which is 8 combos. We are pretty much dead here so assume 0% EQ.

We do have 3 AQs, 9AQo, and maybe 1KQ so around 11 combos which we are
80% favorite against.

Given those ranges we have ~ 45%EQ and we are. Or accounting for any random FD bluffs with A5d or other diamond draws he might play this way.

We need to call 64 to win 137, which means we need 32% EQ which we easily have.

Can anybody please comment on the math?
 
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dvkay

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In BvB this is definitely a call for me. He could be doing this with AQ/KQ and of course 22/44/A4s/QQ/AA
We are behind 3 combos of 22, 1 of 44, 1 of QQ, 2A4s, 1 AA(other combos to usually 4B). Which is 8 combos. We are pretty much dead here so assume 0% EQ.

We do have 3 AQs, 9AQo, and maybe 1KQ so around 11 combos which we are
80% favorite against.


Your math looks correct.

I'm curious however whether villain would raise turn with AQ-KQ. As BlackRain79 says, a turn raise is almost always the nuts. Do you think this is still valid?

On the other hand, would villain perhaps raise with a turned flush draw, even though the board is paired?
 
OmarRD7

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BTN: 207.8 BB
SB: 213.2 BB
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 105.8 BB
CO: 38.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K K

fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 6 BB

Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) 2 Q 4
SB checks, Hero bets 9 BB, SB calls 9 BB

Turn: (36 BB, 2 players) 4
SB checks, Hero bets 18 BB, SB raises to 90 BB, Hero calls 64 BB and is all-in

God help me

Our hand is too strong to fold. If our villan called us with 22 or A4s and got lucky - good for them. I would expect QQ to 4bet us preflop, AA should ALWAYS be doing this as well but some players are not doing such, so it's possible - again good for them if they blinked the two outter or slow played AA. I think we run into a spazzy JJ and Qx hands a TON - AQ would certainly take this line pre and post. Anytime we play these games we should be well bank rolled for these spots. I think this is an easy call off with the KK. Board is just too dry and our hand is just too strong to fold.


Hi there, teh_colonel_saigon! I share the Jon Poker's Opinion. Our hand is too good to be folded. Also, I think that this board is not so wet as you thought.

I say it because the flop (2Q4) a Q is to high for a loose range that maybe the villain could had. Also, it's very unlikely a straight and a possible flush only appears in turn. So, in my opinion it is not a wet board for a loose range. For a tight range is the same, because only has a Q, and the only possible better hand is 3-of-a-kind Q.

Like Jon Poker said, if the villain got a 3-of-a-kind good for them, but in the long run you are going to make money playing well as you did!
 
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fundiver199

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Assume Villain had just check-called you on the turn. Then you would have a pot sized bet left for the river. Was the plan then to check back on a brick card or get it in? If the plan was to get it in, why does it matter, that Villain did your job for you on the turn? As others have said, he can certainly have QX here quite a bit and want to stack it off in a 3-bet pot blind vs. blind.
 
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