This is a discussion on $5 NLHE 6-max: KK on A high flop (?) within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; We C-betting? giving up? Calling a small bet?
Yatahay Network - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
CO: 116.8 BB
Definitely c-bet this flop SB vs BB. Pre is fine but you can also add 1 BB when OOP. Why are we c-betting so small though? If this was a 3 bet pot I would be more on board with 1/3 pot but this looks weak. There are some draws so if we had the Ace we would bet at least 1/2 pot. When we make a weak flop bet then check turn I would expect V to stab any pair in position behind us, maybe even bluff at it with air. If we make a 1/2 to 2/3 c-bet and still get called then our decision points start on the turn. If V is wide I prefer to bet / fold turn and check / eval river. If V is more tight or nitty then we can check / fold turn as we did here.
There are no good options, when you are out of position and hit the worst possible flop for your hand. C-betting suck, because you are not happy, when he call, and he will never fold a better hand. So the only benefit of betting is, that it might protect you from getting bluffed. Check-folding suck, because you lose. Check-calling suck, because so often you are paying him off, and even if he is bluffing, he will get away with it, if he just keep on firing. You cant call him down, and you will almost never improve. So its really pick your poison, and the only line, which would be really bad, is one, that puts more money in the pot, than you already did.
Unfortunately, your hand blocks the best semi bluffs of rank v. Also if we bet on the flop, we will most likely be below the range of calls, which make us OOP. In any case, the first barrel becomes very important, against ranges that have a higher defensive frequency, from middle positions. On the turn, the 8s is definitely bad for our range. Now our blocking force, is almost completely neutralized, by a structure of values, which as they said in the previous comments, can acquire greater conversion capacity in bluffs. Which is a purely negative impact, for our initial value range.
I think a good way to look at this could be like getting a second chance to get out of a pre-flop all-in when the flop clearly doesn't favour your hand. Your villain's stack is very similar to your own and you would lose a lot to the majority of the range that should be calling your raise from MP. There is no shame in putting down kings on this flop. The only exception is if you know your villain's tendency to call down with anything... and this doesn't look like one of those situations.
Would just like to add, that while your hand was the second best possible hand preflop, on this flop it actually moved down to very near the bottom of your 3-betting range, and when you are near the bottom of your range, it is typically ok to just check and fold to pressure.
KK is clearly not a hand, that can get multible streets of value on this board. In fact its probably already behind, if he give action to your flop bet. At the same time it has bad removal and very little hope to improve, so its a terrible hand to turn into a bluff. You dont block top pair or sets, but you block some of his gutshut draws. And if you are behind, you essentially have two outs. This particular KK did not even have a BDFD.
For this reason I do think, it is better to check the flop and mostly hope, he will check behind. There are a few made hands in his range, you beat, and not everyone will turn these hands into bluffs. So sometimes you will be able to get to showdown and win a small pot against his QQ, JJ etc.
Hi there teh_colonel_saigon, thank you for posting your hand. Very well played one, congratulations!
I agree with Fundiver199 and other players who posted. However, I have something more to say. Consider this:
A) Both Hero and Villain are Deep Stacked B) You are out of position to Villain C) MP will have a ton of aces in its range (AQ, AJ, AT, AXx, etc) D) Many players at the micro-stakes never fold any Ax. In this case, if MP has AQ, it is not folding at all, even knowing that SB has all the AK and AA in its range when 3bets.
I love the 1/3 pot flop because it is a 3bet pot out of position, so the pot is already out of proportion and we don't want to take our Villain all-in turn/river, being out of position, deep stacked, with pocket K's in a flop with an Ace.
I would c-bet this flop to fold thousands of turns and rivers. At the micros it is impossible to think that we have half of AK combos and thus AQ, AJ, AT should be folding, players simply don't think like that. Congratulations for your reading, I believe it is perfect.
When Villain bets 1/2 pot turn, it doesn't have any bluffs, it has all the aces in its range, so there's nothing more to say