$5 NLHE 6-max: Good XR? TP w/ FD

[teh_colonel_saigon]

Good spot to XR? Clearly population is calling with much worse.

We aren't worried about many turn cards, so really xr is to regain initiative. (Right?)

Good players would fold out many of their hands here and continue with the best, so on paper isn't doesn't look too good and we turn our hand into a bluff... thoughts?

If we don't XR here, when should we xr and why?

Yatahay Network - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 100 BB
CO: 154 BB
BTN: 99.8 BB
SB: 100 BB
Hero (BB): 107.2 BB
UTG: 61.2 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:spade: Q:spade:

fold, fold, CO raises to 2.8 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 1.8 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) Q:heart: T:spade: 4:spade:
Hero checks, CO bets 4.4 BB, Hero raises to 15.4 BB, CO calls 11 BB

Turn: (36.8 BB, 2 players) 9:club:
Hero bets 12 BB, CO calls 12 BB

River: (60.8 BB, 2 players) A:diamond:
Hero checks, CO checks

CO shows J:club: A:spade: (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 57%, Flop 22%, Turn 20%)
Hero shows K:spade: Q:spade: (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 43%, Flop 78%, Turn 80%)
CO wins 57.8 BB

 

[c0rnBr34d]

I would suggest mixing in more 3 bets with KQss vs a CO open unless he's a nit.

I like the flop x/r.

I don't like your turn sizing at all though. The 9 doesn't hit V's range that hard although he could have KJ some of the time. We have picked up a gut shot to go with our top pair second kicker and K high flush draw. I would be bombing this turn for at LEAST 3/4 pot. We block most flush draws but V can still have A high flush draws or any Jx. Even if V turned a hand as strong as two pair (T9) we still have 43% equity. All the times he misses the Ace here on the river we will win more. All the times he hits a straight but we make the flush we will make more. We want to be building a pot when we are strong and this turn down bet is just begging V to continue by giving him correct odds to call with his hand. He has about 20% equity on the turn and his call represents 20% of the pot. We should be sizing so that V is making a mistake by continuing. And if he folds his equity that's not a horrible result either.

I also agree with river check. Would be gross if he bet behind us.

 

[mt2lhd]

You should put KQ in your 3-bet range pre-flop you wan't a bigger pot with this kind of hands,
Another move that I think was a mistake is your 1/3 bet on the turn, i would do pot size or 3/4, because CO had 8 outs and with depth of his stack 12BB is a call

Overall you did well but not perfect

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

Ah, OK, I should have explained...

KQs is a for sure 3bet, but V has a F3B of 0% over 230 hands... probably not the best sample size, I know...

But assuming V never folds to 3bets and therefore continues with his whole range, wouldn't we want to keep the pot small OOP? We can 3 bet our QQ-AK hands for value, but play the rest as a call... that was my thinking anyway! LMK

 

[Sidetracked]

3 betting from the BB vs a late position open would be a good option.

C/r the flop is good.

Your bet sizing on the turn is way too small and prices him in to call. After that c/r on the flop, I would bet closer to 2/3 pot and put pressure on hands like he has. If he still calls with his 6 outs, then he is making a mistake.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Ah, OK, I should have explained...

KQs is a for sure 3bet, but V has a F3B of 0% over 230 hands... probably not the best sample size, I know...

But assuming V never folds to 3bets and therefore continues with his whole range, wouldn't we want to keep the pot small OOP? We can 3 bet our QQ-AK hands for value, but play the rest as a call... that was my thinking anyway! LMK

Not necessarily. If his PFR is 5-10% (or less) over that same sample then I can see flatting. But if he's opening 15% or more then KQs is ahead of enough of his CO raising range and putting pressure and the smaller suited Aces and we are building a pot for value with a hand that has good blockers, can continue on lots of flops, and plays strong if we hit any piece. We then allow our c-bets and double barrels to over-realize value and force him to hit the flop or flop enough equity to continue instead of him doing the same to us.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

because CO had 8 outs

If he still calls with his 6 outs, then he is making a mistake.

Not to nitpick as I'm sure we are all saying the same thing here but V has 9 outs on the turn. 3 Kings (we block the Ks), 3 8s (the 8 of spades makes us a flush), and 3 Aces.

 

[Mercurius]

I use the check raise very infrequently to be honest and it's something I need to use more I guess. To my mind it's best used when you have a great hand that wants some protection (or extract value from a Fish/Calling station) or you want to bluff a scary (e.g. paired or flush heavy) board.

Why are you check raising him here? Do you want to fold him out or maximize the value of the pot?

If you're looking to fold him out I don't get why, you have top pair with nice draws so have solid equity to win the hand. Keep him in, size up next street and build value that way.

The size of the pot compounds massively by just betting every street with a decent sizing (i.e. >1/2 pot) so you don't need to try and make it a massive pot here. Also, the key thing here is why make it a massive pot when you're unlikely to have the nuts any time you're called - you're gonna see a tonne of calls from sets, AQ and AXs, all of which have you dominated so why raise? They won't fold and if you hit your flush you may still be dominated and lose your stack thinking you're ahead

In this situation you got a little unlucky as you were ahead when raising, but it goes back to the above - you aren't nutted or drawing to the nuts so don't make it a huge pot. You could have called the flop and made sure each street thereafter was half pot bet and got to almost exactly the same pot size at showdown, but got there with a lot more hands that were worse than you and may have folded him off his AJ

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

I use the check raise very infrequently to be honest and it's something I need to use more I guess. To my mind it's best used when you have a great hand that wants some protection (or extract value from a Fish/Calling station) or you want to bluff a scary (e.g. paired or flush heavy) board.

Why are you check raising him here? Do you want to fold him out or maximize the value of the pot?

...

I'm inclined to think the same way. But we do have a lot of equity here and I'd like to take initiative in the hand, plus V calls with worse here. Mediocre hands won't pay us off when the flush hits so I'd like to build a pot now while the gettin' is good. My logic could be wrong, but these are my thoughts.

What stakes do you play Mercurius? I'm more inclined to a passive strategy myself, but I'm wondering how viable it is as I progress up stakes in 6-max.

 

[Mercurius]

I'm inclined to think the same way. But we do have a lot of equity here and I'd like to take initiative in the hand, plus V calls with worse here. Mediocre hands won't pay us off when the flush hits so I'd like to build a pot now while the gettin' is good. My logic could be wrong, but these are my thoughts.

What stakes do you play Mercurius? I'm more inclined to a passive strategy myself, but I'm wondering how viable it is as I progress up stakes in 6-max.

I get the point about taking the initiative but you could have done that by leading the turn - it may have yielded less profit if they folded but ultimately you'd have won the hand and over time you'll find a donk to pay off your flush - plus as i mentioned if you lead turn and river for half pot, and hit the flush on the river you end up with the same pot as your line, but the flush is more disguised if anything as you've been betting "hard" with no flush out there.

The problem here was you took initiative only to give it up on the next street by sizing down (which telegraphed you were drawing and / or were nervous about villain's call) - the re-raise was to 1.5x pot at the time, then you led the following street for 1/3rd pot which is a huge step down. Looking at it again, I'm a little surprise he checked back to you on the river given he blocks the straight and the flush missed, however probably feared a re-raise shove.

To be clear, I don't think the check raise is a disaster or anything here - I just think there's better places to be doing it and I'd want to be holding the most of the time when doing so (for my semi-bluffs) or a set for value / protection. A significant portion of my betting decisions come back to what worse hands I bring along and what better hands I fold, here I think the raise doesn't fold the better hands (albeit you have decent equity against them) and as a proportion of the continuation range there must be a pretty small range of combo's you beat (but haven't done the maths on that ahah!).

I started at 5NL and now I'm playing 16NL - finding 16NL pretty tough, lots of aggression but still plenty of fish who will donate their stack to you when they hit TPTK or 2 pair. 10NL is definitely my sweet spot and where most of my profit comes.

 

[quant1986]

I don't like check raise given the cbet size. If it is smaller, yes I would check raise this combo. Turn I would agree size up 65% to 75%, as you should have more KJ than preflop aggressor after check raising turn. river is a bad card and check/fold perhaps is best.

 

[Aballinamion]

Good spot to XR? Clearly population is calling with much worse.

We aren't worried about many turn cards, so really xr is to regain initiative. (Right?)

Good players would fold out many of their hands here and continue with the best, so on paper isn't doesn't look too good and we turn our hand into a bluff... thoughts?

If we don't XR here, when should we xr and why?

Yatahay Network - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 100 BB
CO: 154 BB
BTN: 99.8 BB
SB: 100 BB
Hero (BB): 107.2 BB
UTG: 61.2 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K♠ Q♠

fold, fold, CO raises to 2.8 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 1.8 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) Q♥ T♠ 4♠
Hero checks, CO bets 4.4 BB, Hero raises to 15.4 BB, CO calls 11 BB

Turn: (36.8 BB, 2 players) 9♣
Hero bets 12 BB, CO calls 12 BB

River: (60.8 BB, 2 players) A♦
Hero checks, CO checks

CO shows J♣ A♠ (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 57%, Flop 22%, Turn 20%)
Hero shows K♠ Q♠ (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 43%, Flop 78%, Turn 80%)
CO wins 57.8 BB

Same situation of the other hand (SB x BB CC range), we can be 3-betting KQs and calling on the same ratio, so I will not judge your cold calling range.
I don't like the sizing of your XR OTF, because it is bigger than the pot. Besides, this flop is pretty obvious: we don't own QQ or TT that would be 3-betting preflop almost always, as much as AQ that would do the same.
When we do XR OTF we are trying to represent 44 and QT plus the FDs and SDs so it is a fine XR IMO (because in this particular spot we do have values and bluffs).
Again, if we decide to XR OTF we cannot simply bet so small OTT and attract stupid ranges to come along and beat us OTR. Your bet OTT is very small compared to your polarized XR OTF: if you are going to be OTT, go for at least 2/3 pot, otherwise it seems you are scared and many players can take advantage of that.
Besides dear mate, at this stake (5 NLHE) we don't expect anyone to be folding TPTK in situations like this, so if I assume that the turn was better to Villain ranges than my ranges, I would simply check-fold.
If we put pressure OTT by betting heavier, CO/Villain would simply call or level against you, well played, thanks for sharing!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa