$5 NLHE 6-max: Flopped bottom 2-pair in 3 way pot

[Cafeman]

People should actually post more everyday, common AINEC close spots imo.
Such as should I cbet X, Y, Z flops against player types A, B, and C IP and OOP. Because I believe that these are actually the spots where most people are making the big mistakes that really do affect their winrate. Not sure why this got so long but there you go lol /rant

Totally agree with this. It's the slow loss of chips here and there that add up, rather than one or two big hands that could go either way. Double barrelling when villain is unlikely to fold etc.

As for this hand, given the way you played it, I shove, expecting BTN to fold and SB to call with hands that we beat (more often than not).

 

[micromachine]

Nice to see that you guys mostly suggested shipping it, which is what I did.

I thought SB was a donkey and would call with worse and that solid seeming BTN would fold. Unfortunately, this time I was up against a couple of monsters.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (4 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($4.30)
Button ($5.47)
SB ($2.55)
Hero (BB) ($5.07)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8

, 9

1 fold, Button bets $0.15, SB calls $0.13, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.45) 9

, J

, 8

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.30, Button calls $0.30, SB raises to $1.15, Hero raises to $4.92 (All-In), Button calls $4.62, SB calls $1.25 (All-In)

Turn: ($12.69) 5

(3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($12.69) 9

(3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $12.69 | Rake: $0.63

Results:
Button had J

, J

(full house, Jacks over nines).
SB had Q

, 10

(straight, Queen high).
Hero had 8

, 9

(full house, nines over eights).
Outcome: Button won $12.06

 

[WVHillbilly]

The ONLY thing you should really be taking away from this hand is FOLD PREFLOP.

 

[micromachine]

Yes he has the passive fish stats so far. And yes this is a strong play for that player type.

This interested me, I had never really considered that when a passive player suddenly becomes aggro it spells danger. Pretty obvious when you think about it.

I normally just assume they are donks and will be making ridiculous plays with weak hands. Often they are doing exactly that, but you would have to have seen them doing that a couple of times to know. If I have nothing but stats in future I'm going to be more cautious when I see this.

But wouldn't it be better to use AfQ because the VP/PFR ratio only reflects how passive they are preflop?

 

[jbbb]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (4 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($4.30)
Button ($5.47) 28/20, 11% 3bet (60 hands)
SB ($2.55) 53/4, 6% 3bet (43 hands)
Hero (BB) ($5.07)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8

, 9

1 fold, Button bets $0.15, SB calls $0.13, Hero folds

ahhhh that's better

 

[micromachine]

Lol, wouldn't have made a very interesting hand analysis though

 

[Nathan Williams]

This interested me, I had never really considered that when a passive player suddenly becomes aggro it spells danger. Pretty obvious when you think about it.

I normally just assume they are donks and will be making ridiculous plays with weak hands. Often they are doing exactly that, but you would have to have seen them doing that a couple of times to know. If I have nothing but stats in future I'm going to be more cautious when I see this.

But wouldn't it be better to use AfQ because the VP/PFR ratio only reflects how passive they are preflop?

You are right, these kinds of players do all sorts of ridiculous stuff with weak holdings but they don't usually check/raise two people for a solid sized raise. That usually indicates a strong hand. But it's not always the nuts either. Bad players have a different idea of what the nuts is than most people do. Top pair and overpair hands are the nuts to them for instance.

Regarding the numbers, I prefer to use AF (agression factor) and I don't pay much attention to it until I have 100 hands on the person. VPIP/PFR numbers are accurate with a much smaller sample however. And while technically they only indicate preflop tendencies, they almost always apply postflop as well. I.e., if you see a big gap between them, this player is almost always going to be passive postflop as well.