$5 NLHE 6-max: Flopped bottom 2-pair in 3 way pot

[micromachine]

A tricky spot.

Fold pre, I know, but as played what do I do in response to the SB check-raise?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (4 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($4.30)
Button ($5.47) 28/20, 11% 3bet (60 hands)
SB ($2.55) 53/4, 6% 3bet (43 hands)
Hero (BB) ($5.07)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8

, 9

1 fold, Button bets $0.15, SB calls $0.13, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.45) 9

, J

, 8

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.30, Button calls $0.30, SB raises to $1.15, Hero

 

[RamdeeBen]

3 way I'm inclined to let this go..most likely 10,Q (better 2 pair) by the looks of. Either way I don't think we have much equity here to a re-raise. "could" be nut flush draw but with him only 3betting so small, I can't see you being ahead here.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Not folding pre was not the only mistake.The donk bet sucks you have a passive calling station between you and the preflop raiser.You c\r this flop your self in order to get the SB to put dead money in the pot.As played it's a fold a 53\4 is check raising 2 players.

 

[WVHillbilly]

1st - Hate it preflop. Don't dismiss that part of the hand as it is a fundamental mistake.

As for postflop; The SB had 50bb to start so folding to him here would be HORRIBLE. BTN is folding about 95% of the time here regardless of what you do. So shove.

Also I don't mind the donk bet here at all. It's a flop that a wide BTN open range will check back against 2 callers most of the time and while I'm happy to get it all in on the flop there are going to be a ton of turns that kill our action or beat us.

 

[JOEBOB69]

1st - Hate it preflop. Don't dismiss that part of the hand as it is a fundamental mistake.

As for postflop; The SB had 50bb to start so folding to him here would be HORRIBLE. How so?Do you think were ahead of his range? BTN is folding about 95% of the time here regardless of what you do. So shove.

Also I don't mind the donk bet here at all. It's a flop that a wide BTN open range will check back against 2 callers most of the time and while I'm happy to get it all in on the flop there are going to be a ton of turns that kill our action or beat us.

As far as the donk bet most people cbet way to damn much so i would be inclined to think he cbets the flop.We get the SB putting in dead money and we c\r.True there are tons of bad turn cards,so i can see merit to it i guess.

 

[WVHillbilly]

BTNs stats indicate he's probably decent and he should be cbetting this board texture rather infrequently (I'd check it back here without a hand I was willing to get all in against the shorty) considering he is likely stealing pretty wide. I like donking a lot more than trying to c/r in this particular hand.

 

[bgomez89]

yeah. fold pre please. No idea why you'd defend that hand here

 

[baudib1]

I'm not saying I would do it but I bet c/f would be a better line overall than C/R this spot when BTN bets and SB calls.

bottom 2 on this board is going to have shitty equity vs. continuing ranges; definitely a spot where having a draw would be infinitely preferable.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I'm not saying I would do it but I bet c/f would be a better line overall than C/R this spot when BTN bets and SB calls.

bottom 2 on this board is going to have shitty equity vs. continuing ranges; definitely a spot where having a draw would be infinitely preferable.

SB is only 50bb deep, he'll be showing up here with ANY jack.

 

[baudib1]

I'm more concerned about CR the BTN, who has all kinds of better hands and huge draws.

 

[JOEBOB69]

SB is only 50bb deep, he'll be showing up here with ANY jack.

I just don't think a 54/4 is going to shove any jack here.(Given it's a limited # of hands but enough to know he is passive as shit)

I'm more concerned about CR the BTN, who has all kinds of better hands and huge draws.

i don't see him having "all kinds of better hands" ,draw possible but whats wrong with getting it vs a draw +FE to collect the dead money in the pot.

 

[baudib1]

What kind of hands do you think you fold out? Your equity sucks vs. his continuing range, you have to c/f half the deck on the turn and the hands you fold out had no equity to begin with. I sort of like the concept of having middling SDV (bottom 2 is definitely middling value here) hands here but bottom two is terrible to CR with on this board.

Instead, try CR with AA after flatting pre from the BB and CR with air on K22 flops.

 

[JOEBOB69]

You would fold out all J's except J10,you also fold out all overs in his air range,and you fold out all the draws to the dumy end of the st8 67s,57s etc.

 

[baudib1]

Those are exactly the hands you want him to stay in with. The hands that are left have us drawing dead.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I'm more concerned about CR the BTN, who has all kinds of better hands and huge draws.

What? The BTN didn't CR the SB did? The BTN almost never has a real hand after flatting our donk bet. What am I missing here?

 

[baudib1]

I'm talking about taking a CR line instead of donking, what are you talking about?

BTN's continuing range to our CR is going to be pretty rough and he can have all nut-like combos, I don't care about the SB's range.

This hand should not be in our CR range vs. the BTN.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Those are exactly the hands you want him to stay in with. The hands that are left have us drawing dead.

Why do you want him to stay in with those hands?Your right they have good equity vs your hand but he will fold,plus we have the extra $ from the SB.I'm not saying it's solid as hell.I just thing it's leaning more to c\r than donking but i can see donking has merit as well.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I'm talking about taking a CR line instead of donking, what are you talking about?

BTN's continuing range to our CR is going to be pretty rough and he can have all nut-like combos, I don't care about the SB's range.

This hand should not be in our CR range vs. the BTN.

I was talking about the way he actually played the hand. Sorry confused the CR in the actual hand with the CR you were talking about.

 

[Nathan Williams]

Fold or Squeeze pre. It's not the most fun spot to be in when a fish check/raises you both. This is a very strong play. With full stacks I honestly might get away. Versus his stack size though, ship time.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Ok i really don't get as played why we are shiping here.We surly can not beat a 54\4 range to c\r 2 players on this flop explain please.

 

[Nathan Williams]

Ok i really don't get as played why we are shiping here.We surly can not beat a 54\4 range to c\r 2 players on this flop explain please.

Stack size more than anything. Also let's remember that poker is not a game of absolutes. We have just 43 hands on the guy. Yes he has the passive fish stats so far. And yes this is a strong play for that player type. But it doesn't mean that he can't have draws, top pairs or complete nonsense in his range from time to time as well. How about a ridiculously badly played overpair as well?

It's not a fistpump shove by any means but I expect it to be a higher EV play than folding. I am never calling so I don't even put that in the equation. Also there is the small bonus of the trapped dead money from the button. Also it is NL5. You will be amazed what they will show up with sometimes especially short handed. Please don't look to make hero folds in a spot like this.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Look thanks for the insight BR ,that i still don't see a 54\4 thinking about the button dead money etc.but i apperciate your thoughts and comment to this site.I was on the fence about your book and now i must read.(prob not the place for me to say it but ....ya know)

 

[WVHillbilly]

Also 54/4 are his preflop stats, and yes while they will generally point to a passive player on all streets we don't know that he's not the type to play big pairs like this preflop to "trap" or that he won't play TP this way. I'm pretty happy getting it in against this guy with bottom 2.

 

[Nathan Williams]

Look thanks for the insight BR ,that i still don't see a 54\4 thinking about the button dead money etc.but i apperciate your thoughts and comment to this site.I was on the fence about your book and now i must read.(prob not the place for me to say it but ....ya know)

Thanks and like I said it is always important to remember that poker is not a game of absolutes. Is folding here terrible? No. It's a question of which play maximizes our EV. If you believe that folding does that then by all means go ahead. The only annoying (and bad) comments on poker forums are when people say one liners like "AINEC" (and it's not even close).

It is always close! AINEC hands rarely get posted because people believe that they already know what to do in those spots. People post hands on forums the large majority of the time because it is some crazy spot where there is a big decision with several viable lines that they could take. Usually one option is marginally better than the others and people debate until they are blue in the face over which one it is. However these hands are rare and if you make the sub optimal decision it won't actually have a large impact on your winrate.

People should actually post more everyday, common AINEC close spots imo.
Such as should I cbet X, Y, Z flops against player types A, B, and C IP and OOP. Because I believe that these are actually the spots where most people are making the big mistakes that really do affect their winrate. Not sure why this got so long but there you go lol /rant

 

[baudib1]

Stop saying things like "just 43 hands."

If you don't have a ton of info on someone within 43 hands, like general tendencies, betting patterns and level of aggressiveness, how he plays draws, how often he cold calls, and some general timing tells, you probably shouldn't be playing poker for real money because your powers of observation suck.

Secondly, there is zero chance that someone who is a true TAG or nit or LAG will run something like 54/4 over 40+ hands barring extreme dynamic at the table (someone shoving every flop with air).