$5 NLHE 6-max: 4bet bluff with low pair gone bad OOP

B

braveslice

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I checked the turn in with fold plan. I guess I could have just folded pre, also I could just have not CB, I could have just shoved the turn and I could have called the river too lol.

Villain 35/29 – 26 hands, AF 3, AFq 67%, won when saw the flop 5/6, 3bet 3/9

I think his range on the turn is QJ, KJ,AJ, A3,A4, all sets flop, over pairs, TT and sometimes 66 to 99


PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100.4 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 28)
Hero (SB): 214.2 BB
BB: 119.2 BB (VPIP: 32.00, PFR: 28.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 25)
UTG: 93.2 BB
MP: 258.8 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
CO: 145.4 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 6)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 5 5

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero raises to 26 BB, BB calls 17 BB

Flop: (52 BB, 2 players) J 3 4
Hero bets 28 BB, BB calls 28 BB

Turn: (108 BB, 2 players) 2
Hero checks, BB bets 30 BB, Hero calls 30 BB

River: (168 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, BB bets 35.2 BB and is all-in, fold

BB wins 161 BB
 
Figaroo2

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4 betting 26bb with small pairs prices you in if he 5bet shoves as you have 33% equity against JJ+.
As a result I rarely 4 bet bluff small pairs. Here you are OOP which is the key consideration, it makes it a preflop fold to the 3bet all day for me. If you call and hit your set OOP there is absolutely no guarantee of getting paid as you are usually going to have to bet first on the river to get stacks in.
In position I would consider calling the 3bet IF he wasn't a barreller, ie passive type and his turn cbet has to be under 50% before I'd even consider a float in a 3bet pot. I would also factor in this is 5nl zoom and calling 4 bets usually still indicates a strong hand.
As played if you are going to one and done then make it a big one..3/4 pot at least, 28bb looks like scared money to me. If you had a strong hand you'd pump it up so you can easily shove the rest in on the turn.
 
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Vini_lepoker

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I'm not sure how good it is too 4-bluff in this spot. Yes, he seems pretty loose, but you got only 25 hands on him.
As played, I don't hate the Cbet on the flop. Imo the problem is really the turn, you either have to give up or get it in.
 
Aces2w1n

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Raising the 4bet was to get the fold... once we dont get it we dont make a bad situation worse.

At this stake shoving turn is just spew... THis guy is looking at his cards and likes it. He aint folding.

Call 3bet and giveup after that... unless he bets small we could sneak turn.

As played dont put more money in pot after flop
 
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braveslice

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Well I guess this hand wasn’t that bad then, it just felt like total torment, so I figured this must be totally messed up hand. I was probably hoping hints for exit route, but after I do 4bet and get called that’s it probably.

Size of 4bet was done by real time adjustment and it’s probably wrong as said. I betted large because I wanted him to fold KJ, we are 120bb deep and I’m out of position. If we assume 22bb 4bet is standard, 26bb is not that off. If we face 5bet shove we get 39% pot odds, and we are indeed priced in vs {JJ+,AJs+,AQo+} however shoving that light is still not the tendency in NL5 at least every time, so I still would chose easy fold here. Must be careful here , this is way closer than I though before.

Flop I don’t see any reason to bet larger, if he missed he will fold, if he hit anything he will call at least once, probably till end if no over cards.

I do agree that 4betting was probably wrong here, and Ax,Kx would have been better because of blockers, and it’s quite possible he had something reasonable when he called, maybe even likely.

On turn I get direct odds 18% to call set of JJ because of open ender, and topped with implied odds not seeing him folding anything anymore, so call should be well in realms of EV+

Thx for comments, lets pretend this never happened =)

Edit @Aces that totally was my plan, but the flop came so dry the devil whispered too strong....
 
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You can pick way better hands to 4-bet bluff with. 55 has enough value to call and go to a flop with. Even OOP your implied odds are definitely good enough to just flat his 3-bet. Your hand also doesn't block any of his value. It even blocks some 3-bet bluffs from him, like A5s, 65s and 54s. Call pre and go from there.

If you're gonna continue the flop with TT-55 I guess this hand is the best to do it with as it needs the most protection, but I still don't like it. You've got so many better hands in your range. At this point you have to be asking yourself whether you're bluffing or value betting, which generally isn't good. Awkward flop decision as a result of awkward pre-flop play. Would check-call.

Turn is verrry close. Considering you have 8 outs you're getting the right price to call by about 1%. Though, the fact he still has some A5s and 65s making your outs not completely clean makes it a fold for me.

River fold is fine.
 
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braveslice

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@ninoverm, sounds very reasonable. However I don't get the check- call plan. We have to assume he will bet at least once on later streets. Any thoughts about this?
 
Figaroo2

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Calling 3bets oop with small pairs is a confirmed leak in every data base we looked at in the polished poker thread. Run your filters and check your stats if you don't believe me.
Checking mine( 22-55 call 3bet oop) I only managed to win one whole stack in 150 call attempts and am running at -500bb/100 hands. Fortunately thats only 150 hands in nearly a million, I stopped calling with them OOP a long time ago.
In fact calling 3bets in position with 22-55 isn't that clever either.
 
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Aces2w1n

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Neutral poker isnt it fig in position?
 
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braveslice

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I have 6 calls 5NL OOP last 45k hands, lost -3.5$
 
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ninoverm

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@ninoverm, sounds very reasonable. However I don't get the check- call plan. We have to assume he will bet at least once on later streets. Any thoughts about this?

That's too much to assume. It's hard to be unexploitable after 4-betting 55, but the least exploitable way is to check-call and decide what you wanna do on later streets based on action. Also if you check he's gonna check back a ton of the time as well and that just makes the hand a lot easier to play. When you're at the point you don't really know if you're bluffing or valuebetting (which in this case you are - or should) you almost always have to check.

Calling 3bets oop with small pairs is a confirmed leak in every data base we looked at in the polished poker thread. Run your filters and check your stats if you don't believe me.
Checking mine( 22-55 call 3bet oop) I only managed to win one whole stack in 150 call attempts and am running at -500bb/100 hands. Fortunately thats only 150 hands in nearly a million, I stopped calling with them OOP a long time ago.
In fact calling 3bets in position with 22-55 isn't that clever either.

I like this thought - also depends how you play post-flop of course (you're quite often ahead) but I'm going to assume you're good enough to let these statistics be reliable. I never really put myself in the spot where I have to decide whether I wanna call a 3-bet in the SB with low pocket pairs as they're part of my SB limp-calling range so haven't thought about this too much, but I agree that a fold pre is definitely defendable as well.
 
Ahoy

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Hello, I think that calling 3bet with small pair like pocket fives out of position is not good in cash games, I used to do this a few months back and it always led me to a chip leak instead of making some profit off of it.
 
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