This is a discussion on $5 NLHE 6-max: 3-bet OOP... how to play these spots? within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; Help me cards chat! Help me in my quest to not be exploited by 3-bets while OOP!
I know that this should be a fold against
Your Q in the 3-bet line is very unprotected. There is no confrontation against Q-J (6c) Q-K (8c) and A-Q (8c). This without readings is a fold preflop. We are not looking for a third flush nut. And the 9; T; J enter the wide range of BTN. Which is bad for us, because it blocks the middle straight of our range.
eetenor, OmarRD7, teh_colonel_saigon, Aballinamion liked this post
Fold pre, as played definitely fold to the 3 bet pre. Post flop is fine, especially considering the flush draw equity OTT. This is why we want to fold pre. RIO problems with these hands on top of being OOP in a 3 bet pot.
As stated by all others this is a fold to 3 bets. For the very reason that you made top pair and it was no good.
You may wish to take the time to define what an unkown villain's range in this spot would be and then experiment using the cardschat odds calculator with what hands that could be calling 3 bets vs that range.
Simple example here.
Qh8h vs Ah Qd is 28% equity: 10h8h is 38% 33% more equity.
Reverse implied odds is important in NL. Dominated hands suck to call 3 bets with vs standard ranges.
In case you are wondering, yes if you are opening Qh8H vs unknowns you should also be opening 10h8h
Hope this helps
gustav197poker, teh_colonel_saigon, Aballinamion liked this post
Not to sound like a broken record but I agree with the fold pre flop. Our hand just doesn't play too well post flop and when we do hit it's hard to know where we stand in the hand. As the hand plays out we see a shining example of this where we flop a weak top pair and are forced to call at least 2 streets.
As played we HAVE to call flop because we hit top pair and cannot afford to be folding to a single bet.
Turn gives us a flush draw and improves our hands equity a tiny bit - we HAVE to call this as well.
The river is where things get interesting...how often is our opponent 3 betting pre flop and triple barreling into us as a pure bluff on a OJ355 runout? Not saying it doesnt happen, but I think more often than it being a bluff - it's just a simple value bet from better Qx, JJ, A5 of clubs, or some overpairs.
As I said, it's not impossible for villan to be bluffing this river - i personally may decide to triple here with Ax of clubs or 9T, KT, etc. - all my missed draws pretty much - but at these levels I tend not to do such a thing because most players are never bluffing and are just playing ABC poker. The way we win at these stakes is to let the player pool make the mistakes into us, we dont need to get fancy or call them down light to win here. This same guy is stacking off if we 4bet him with AK, JJ, KK and such so no need for us to call a big 3bet with Q8s oop and go to war. Make sense? Hope so lol
fundiver199, Aballinamion, eetenor liked this post
re: Poker & $5 NLHE 6-max: 3-bet OOP... how to play these spots?
Preflop is just a fold, and this matter, because when we play to many hands, we simply can not play well postflop. Bad hands connect badly with boards, so if we play to many hands, we either end up folding to much, bluffing to much or paying off with to much junk.
That being said you played postflop perfect. Dont be results oriented and start thinking about, how you could get him to fold TPTK, just because, this is, what he turned out to have. Your hand has showdown value and picked up a draw as well, so calling is definitely the correct line. He could easily be dubble barreling as a bluff. AK for instance had a gutshot with two overs.
For the record I would have folded to a big river bet, and I would have folded on the turn, if you did not pick up that draw. But with the draw, your hand was to good to fold.
Hi teh_colonel_saigon, thanks a lot for sharing your hands! Well, it seems a consensus here and I agree with everybody that have posted before, except for the fact that I don't believe your postflop game was fine. Once you made a mistake the tendency is that you make more mistakes after.
Well buddy, what can I say? If you don't want to be exploited out of position, simply lay down your Q8s and wait for another opportunity.
When we raise preflop the medium-weaker part of our range, such as Q8s, we are just expecting to get called from a recreational player at the blinds (SB or BB or both) and overplay it/them postflop. Because Q8s will not realize its equity so good most of times.
I believe your Cold Calling 3bet range is a little bit weak. When Button 3bets you it will have in its range all the AQ, KQ, QJ, QT, Q9 in its range and you will have none of these combos. If you hit a Top Pair you will be mostly behind a 3bet range. If you hit a flush you will be commited with a 3rd nut flush in a 3bet pot where BTN will have all the better flushes.
I believe this scenario is the classic reverse implied odds one: even when you hit your equity you will be far away behind.
I would not even consider the postflop game, since IMO, your major mistake was called the 3bet preflop.
My personal Cash Game does not include Q8s as a cold call range out of position, even being sure that Button will 3bet light a lot trying to make the CO's wide range to fold preflop and take the pot uncontested.
How do I play 3bets pots? Well, I will call a 3bet with the same range that I could be making a 4bet for value or a 4bet light. Q8s is not in any of my 4bet ranges. Very weak hand with a poor flobability.
You have thousands of reasons to fold preflop your Q8s and similar combos, one more reason is that Villain is an unknown.
You said yourself that this hand should be a fold against an unknown player, so ask yourself why did you decide to play it. Try to wonder if you were not bored to death at the time you decided to cold call preflop.
Sometimes, the Cash Game will have no emotions, no rush, no adrenaline at all! Cash Games are boring, nothing happens, we fold a lot of hands most of times and folding is the +EV move that we want to make more. Do not play if you are tired, sick, anger, whatever.
I hope it helps you.