$5 NL HE Full Ring: Call or Fold to ALL IN with this very strong hand?

[charliej]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.02/$.05

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

This Hand History was recreated as best I could using a template hand from ACR hand history to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software. My HUD was not on so I apologize if this is difficult to decipher but I really wanted to hear some feedback on this hand. Thanks.



NL Holdem 0.05(BB)

SB ($10.48) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

HERO ($9.50) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

UTG ($4.14) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

EP ($7.39) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

MP ($4.77) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

LJ ($3.63) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

HJ ($4.95) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

CO ($1.54) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

BTN ($9.75) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand however I have this note “RFI 4x w/KTo EP 5NL”]

Dealt to Hero: J:diamond: J:spade:



UTG Folds, EP Folds, MP Folds,LJ Calls $0.05, HJ Calls $0.05 , CO Folds, BTN Raises to $0.25, SB Folds[/I], HERO Raises to $.80, MP Folds, ,J Folds,HJ Folds, BTN Calls $.80



Flop ($1.64): Q:club: J:heart: 9:spade:

HERO Bets $1.50, BTN Calls



Turn ($4.49): Q:club: J:heart: 9:spade: Q:spade:

HERO Bets $2.20 (Rem. Stack: $5.05), BTN Calls (Rem. Stack: $5.50)



River ($8.67): Q:club: J:heart: 9:spade: Q:spade: Q:diamond:

HERO Checks, BTN Bets All IN ($5.50)

Spoiler

HERO FOLDS

 

[gustav197poker]

In ACR you can export your hand history to a folder that has your username in it and then you can use Cardschat's hand converter to present your hand in whatever format you prefer.
In relation to the hand you played, it sounds like you think the V is a super nit style of player. The question is whether an ultra-tight range is going to call on the turn with trips. I guess it's debatable.
I personally am always calling OTR as played.
Greetings.

 

[liuouhgkres]

Villain has a lot of strong draws and pair+draws that missed the river. Villain has enough bluffs, possibly even too many bluffs. Call, if villain has it, think of it as a cooler and move on.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
3-bet is fine, but sizing could be a bit larger out of position.

Flop
C-bet is fine, but now your sizing is on the large side.

Turn
Good card for you, since now you dont need to worry about him having or making a straight. Since you now have a boat, its fine to size down to keep him in.

River
This on the other hand was a death card, since you got counterfeited. Your hand is now essentially just a single J, and you lose to any hand with a Q and also to KK-AA. I agree with checking, since your hand is to weak to bet for value, and to strong to turn it into a bluff. When he jam, its a bluff catching situation. As others have said, there are some busted draws (mainly TX), but he is betting an entire buyin, and in my experience the population in a microstakes cash games tends to have it, when they put in all their money on the river. So I lean towards a fold here, even though it might be slightly exploitable.

 

[fundiver199]

Villain has a lot of strong draws and pair+draws that missed the river.

A pair+draw like for instance JTs or T9s is a full house on the river. So the question is, does Villain turn a full house into a bluff trying to get Hero to fold a better full house? Or does he just check back, because he think, he has enough showdown value. The same can be said for a flopped straight. The only real missed draw is AT specifically. But does ATo always call the 3-bet pre, and does AT always call the near full pot sized bet on the flop? Sure its an OESD, but its to a 1-liner, and Hero could already have a straight with KTs or T8s. I think, there are far less bluffs here, than you assume.

To be fair there are not that many hands, Hero lose to either. AA or KK probably 4-bet pre. So basically we are looking at AQ, KQ, QTs, Q9s, which is only 10 combos. I think, its close, but it is better to hero call here with AA or KK rather than JJ due to blockers and for the odd chance, that Villain has the last J and kind of overplay it. This is also a full ring cash game, where the player pool tends to be a bit more straight forward on average compared to 6-max.

 

[Station_Master]

Fundiver has summarised it well so not much to add. I think fold at the end is fine, yes hero could be turning KT into a bluff but will usually have the Q. I dont hate a hero call but I thi k fold is slightly better. Your sizings preflop flop and turn are all a bit odd, so I would suggest working on that

 

[charliej]

Fundiver has summarised it well so not much to add. I think fold at the end is fine, yes hero could be turning KT into a bluff but will usually have the Q. I dont hate a hero call but I thi k fold is slightly better. Your sizings preflop flop and turn are all a bit odd, so I would suggest working on that

Thank you for your feedback. Re: the bet sizings, I assumed this hand had a good chance to become the winner, so...

I suppose preflop could've been a 3-bet for a little more, maybe $1. To me, a call was a weak play. Once the third Jack hit, my goal was to stoke the pot or force a fold. When he called, it was clear he was not intimidated. When the 2nd Queen hit to give me the boat, I figured the hand was all but over and I wanted to keep him in, hence the 1/2 pot bet. I didn't see any point in betting the river. I would have had to go all in myself. If he had the goods he would call, if not he would check it back.

How would you have bet differently and why? Thanks again!

 

[Aballinamion]

This Hand History was recreated as best I could using a template hand from ACR hand history to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software. My HUD was not on so I apologize if this is difficult to decipher but I really wanted to hear some feedback on this hand. Thanks.



NL Holdem 0.05(BB)

SB ($10.48) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

HERO ($9.50) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

UTG ($4.14) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

EP ($7.39) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

MP ($4.77) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

LJ ($3.63) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

HJ ($4.95) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

CO ($1.54) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand]

BTN ($9.75) [Sorry, no HUD data for this hand however I have this note “RFI 4x w/KTo EP 5NL”]

Dealt to Hero: J:diamond: J:spade:



UTG Folds, EP Folds, MP Folds,LJ Calls $0.05, HJ Calls $0.05 , CO Folds, BTN Raises to $0.25, SB Folds[/I], HERO Raises to $.80, MP Folds, ,J Folds,HJ Folds, BTN Calls $.80



Flop ($1.64): Q:club: J:heart: 9:spade:

HERO Bets $1.50, BTN Calls



Turn ($4.49): Q:club: J:heart: 9:spade: Q:spade:

HERO Bets $2.20 (Rem. Stack: $5.05), BTN Calls (Rem. Stack: $5.50)



River ($8.67): Q:club: J:heart: 9:spade: Q:spade: Q:diamond:

HERO Checks, BTN Bets All IN ($5.50)

Spoiler

HERO FOLDS

Thanks for posting this awesome hand mate! And a complicated one! I put myself in your shoes to try to do a serious analysis of your hand. I think the preflop action was fine, your 3-bet has a good sizing which makes the limper fold and you got a heads-up flop OOP.
I think that on the flop your action was fine by starting fire, because this flop hits our range that 3-bets OOP quite a bit, we own plenty of Queens and Jacks, and the sizing was fine.
We want to protect our value hand and bluff when necessary.
On the turn we could check because we have completed a Full-House, and betting also it’s a great idea for the bet might look like protection.
Now this river really sucks our intentions and we could bet to get values of losing hands, although we believe AA and KK would had 4-bet preflop more than flatting.
Your check is good if we do ask what types of hands call a 3-bet preflop and continue to call barrels on the flop and turn. Would AK, AJ, AT play like this? AA and KK are not so much.. it’s a kinda a dry flop and the turn doesn’t change the situation a lot. The same as river.
Considering it is a deep stacked pot and Villain in position comes for a push of over 100 blinds, I would be inclined to fold. If it wasn’t a 400 blinds pot, I would have called easily!
You might assume a nitty move, but if we do own most of combos of Jacks, and the only losing hand that could be doing it it’s maybe 99, I don’t see why not to fold, always considering this isn’t a normal 200 blinds pot, but a 400 blinds pot.
I didn’t see the results and it doesn’t matter if you have folded or called, what it matters is the range and opponent reading that will make us set up the best decision for the moment.
Anyway, @fundiver199 had explained much better than me. Follow its advices it’s a very experienced player.
Best regards!

 

[Station_Master]

Thank you for your feedback. Re: the bet sizings, I assumed this hand had a good chance to become the winner, so...

I suppose preflop could've been a 3-bet for a little more, maybe $1. To me, a call was a weak play. Once the third Jack hit, my goal was to stoke the pot or force a fold. When he called, it was clear he was not intimidated. When the 2nd Queen hit to give me the boat, I figured the hand was all but over and I wanted to keep him in, hence the 1/2 pot bet. I didn't see any point in betting the river. I would have had to go all in myself. If he had the goods he would call, if not he would check it back.

How would you have bet differently and why? Thanks again!

It's mainly preflop where I think it's too small should be at least 4x and with the limpers and being deep too maybe 1.20 or 1.30 would be better.

Flop I prefer slightly smaller (get value from more) and turn slightly bigger (polarising) but I'm probably nitpicking here!

 

[gustav197poker]

I forgot to mention that AA and KK are hands that 4-bet preflop at a higher frequency. Therefore those hands are more in your range than in your villain's range.
So here the strongest V range is made up primarily of AQ and KQ. Because these hands are much more likely to take advantage of position and play call/3bet, from BTN. That's why in my previous comment, I said about that: how likely is it that a tight range will just call OTT with trips and not go looking for all the money there?, Because mainly it will only be behind 3 combos: JJ.
In my perspective blocking JJ isn't ideal but it's not bad either. Because if V had JJ he could have played exactly the way he did throughout the hand. Whereas if V would have AA and KK it is more likely that the hand would be defined preflop. Or at least V would have had to raise on the flop to recover some of the value lost in pre. That's why I think the best decision is to call on the river and not fold this pot. You become very exploitable in a situation and from my point of view it doesn't deserve it. I think there are better places to fold and not this one. I suggest you play with enough bankroll and buckle up at these specific places in micro stakes.

 

[fundiver199]

I said about that: how likely is it that a tight range will just call OTT with trips and not go looking for all the money there?, Because mainly it will only be behind 3 combos: JJ.

That is only true, if Hero has a really narrow and unbalanced 3-betting range consisting basically only of JJ+ and AK. If Hero is 3-betting a wider range, which he clearly should against a BTN open, then Hero can also have a straight with KTs or T8s or a boat with 99. And if Villain has KQ, he could be up against AQ, which has him outkicked. So yes its possible, that Villain might raise the turn with trips. But he could refrain from doing it, because he worry about those hands, that still beat him.

And maybe more importantly Villain dont need to raise, since he has position and can always get it in on the river, if he wants to. So assuming, that Villain is unlikely to have quads, because it would have been played different on the earlier streets, is flawed hand analysis in my opinion. If we are going to call here, it has to be, because we think, there are likely to also be other hands in his range, that play like this, not because he is unlikely to have quads.

 

[gustav197poker]

That is only true, if Hero has a really narrow and unbalanced 3-betting range consisting basically only of JJ+ and AK. If Hero is 3-betting a wider range, which he clearly should against a BTN open, then Hero can also have a straight with KTs or T8s or a boat with 99. And if Villain has KQ, he could be up against AQ, which has him outkicked. So yes its possible, that Villain might raise the turn with trips. But he could refrain from doing it, because he worry about those hands, that still beat him.

And maybe more importantly Villain dont need to raise, since he has position and can always get it in on the river, if he wants to. So assuming, that Villain is unlikely to have quads, because it would have been played different on the earlier streets, is flawed hand analysis in my opinion. If we are going to call here, it has to be, because we think, there are likely to also be other hands in his range, that play like this, not because he is unlikely to have quads.

You are leaving a message that I do not share. Hero should call on the river, because both players are polarized. In my opinion BU shouldn't have enough Qxs in his range. Because he tries to get dead money preflop. And he should go up OTT with trips. Here we are ready to put all the money. This is not 100NL where guys are going to slow play AA or KK. Or with thrips. Here it is most likely that V fell in love with some hand and decided to take the initiative on the river. There is also the possibility that V has another J and has overplayed it OTR.

 

[Station_Master]

You are leaving a message that I do not share. Hero should call on the river, because both players are polarized. In my opinion BU shouldn't have enough Qxs in his range. Because he tries to get dead money preflop. And he should go up OTT with trips. Here we are ready to put all the money. This is not 100NL where guys are going to slow play AA or KK. Or with thrips. Here it is most likely that V fell in love with some hand and decided to take the initiative on the river. There is also the possibility that V has another J and has overplayed it OTR.

Villain going all-in on the turn with trips for 200bb when hero could have a straight or FH?I think it's unlikely. Villain definitely has more Qs in his range by the river. I struggle to see what calls 2 bets and then bluffs, 99 that got counterfeit? The one combo of JTs, an overplayed AJ of spades? There really aren't many logical bluffs. I think a nitty fold is the best play here.

 

[Aballinamion]

You are leaving a message that I do not share. Hero should call on the river, because both players are polarized. In my opinion BU shouldn't have enough Qxs in his range. Because he tries to get dead money preflop. And he should go up OTT with trips. Here we are ready to put all the money. This is not 100NL where guys are going to slow play AA or KK. Or with thrips. Here it is most likely that V fell in love with some hand and decided to take the initiative on the river. There is also the possibility that V has another J and has overplayed it OTR.

Hello friend thanks for your posting. I don’t understand the fact that villain is trying to punish limpers by raising and collecting dead blinds directly related with the fact that villain could have Jx, Qx, Kx or Ax. What one thing has to do with the other?
And without trying to raise a fire here, I think that in any case hero or villain “could” do this or that move, not “should”, which implies obligatory decisions.
It makes me very happy that people are debating with respect and have different points of view, because now all of us, including the OP can form a broad and coherent analysis: if we do all agree on the same move or discussion point, we are shutting ourselves to a narrow understanding of the whole.
I’m also glad that all of us here are poker mates and even friends somehow and our different points of view are the solid basis that form our mindset.
Let’s continue with this healthy and constructive criticism and debate so we also keep the cash games thread alive, for in the last weeks they are kinda slow with only a few posts and replies.
Thank you all for your respectful behavior and manners, that goes for our dearest @Station_Master, @gustav197poker and @fundiver199 that work a lot here and are always being sincere and putting great effort into the commentaries and analysis.
Best regards to all of you!

 

[charliej]

Hello friend thanks for your posting. I don’t understand the fact that villain is trying to punish limpers by raising and collecting dead blinds directly related with the fact that villain could have Jx, Qx, Kx or Ax. What one thing has to do with the other?
And without trying to raise a fire here, I think that in any case hero or villain “could” do this or that move, not “should”, which implies obligatory decisions.
It makes me very happy that people are debating with respect and have different points of view, because now all of us, including the OP can form a broad and coherent analysis: if we do all agree on the same move or discussion point, we are shutting ourselves to a narrow understanding of the whole.
I’m also glad that all of us here are poker mates and even friends somehow and our different points of view are the solid basis that form our mindset.
Let’s continue with this healthy and constructive criticism and debate so we also keep the cash games thread alive, for in the last weeks they are kinda slow with only a few posts and replies.
Thank you all for your respectful behavior and manners, that goes for our dearest @Station_Master, @gustav197poker and @fundiver199 that work a lot here and are always being sincere and putting great effort into the commentaries and analysis.
Best regards to all of you!

I truly appreciate the interest and feedback on my original post. It's everything I had hoped for and I plan on hitting the books to follow up on all the excellent strategy offered.

I just wanted to share a couple other thoughts I have on this hand and online poker in general at this level:

- It's true as some have said that a call to the shove may have been the right play, but I have found that in the absence of anything to suggest a bluff that a big bet on the turn or river usually means the villain has the goods.

- Slow playing AA and KK while not common, happens more than you might think. I've tried it many times myself - usually to disastrous results when an opponent draws out. Nowadays I try not to slow play with anything less than a set.

- And lastly, one of the good, and bad aspects of online, is the time clock. In a pressure situation like this, 15-20 seconds is just not enough time to weigh a decision. It becomes reactionary.

Thanks again!! Talk soon.

 

[gustav197poker]

Villain going all-in on the turn with trips for 200bb when hero could have a straight or FH?I think it's unlikely. Villain definitely has more Qs in his range by the river. I struggle to see what calls 2 bets and then bluffs, 99 that got counterfeit? The one combo of JTs, an overplayed AJ of spades? There really aren't many logical bluffs. I think a nitty fold is the best play here.

You're right, hero could have KT and JJ. But it could also have: AKss; AA and KK. Remember that hero should adjust the range a bit depending on the dynamics of the hand. It is presumed that BTN is not so open when attacking limpers. If we cover the cards it gives the impression that hero induces to bet on the river, or that hero gave up. Which allows V the possibility of taking riskier alternatives. (Both ranges polarized).
Maybe with sticky TT thinking H has AK and resigned on the river. Or with or AJ or 99 for instance.

 

[John A]

I don't hate the check at the end, but this is a really standard call on the river. Between villians bluffs, or them over valuing Jx or 9x, it's a profitable call, especially at these stakes.

 

[Aballinamion]

I don't hate the check at the end, but this is a really standard call on the river. Between villians bluffs, or them over valuing Jx or 9x, it's a profitable call, especially at these stakes.

It’s really good to see you here professor Anhalt!
What other forum has professionals posting around? Cardschat is far the best poker forum ever! Thanks for your post, have a nice day!
Best regards

 

[makisaa]

It is a difficult situation because it seems that your full house maybe is in front of a four of a kind qweens. This means that if you have the nerve and the coolness you think here what to do. It smells like he has the qween. Or he has another full house. He has something strong from the beginning. Most of the times I would play it!