45s against QQ

K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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Arg, frustrating...

on a bodog $.10/$.25 RING game ($16.21 in my hand)...

My Pocket: :qs4: :qc4:

I raise 5x BB $1.25 in 7th spot. SB & 3rd call me.

Flop comes :7s4: :jc4: :10s4:

SB check
3rd bets $4.00 [pot]
(I should've folded)
Me 7th - went over the top and raised to $8.00
SB - comes over me with all-in

Now there's $16.00 in the pot.

3rd folds, I'm guessing SB hit a set or maybe a straight or flush draw. Couldn't see someone call a pre-flop with 8-9 to hit the straight that was showing. I had the Qs, so really only looking at a AKJ flush draw maybe, and very possible a AK straight draw. I mostly put SB on a 10x or Jx. So I take my chances since I'm invested in the pot and I'm paired over the board (again shoulda' folded post-flop with the bet from 3rd). We turn our cards over...

(board reminder) :7s4: :jc4: :10s4:

Me - :qs4: :qc4:

SB - :4s4: :5s4:

turn - :2c4:

river - :2s4: giving SB their flush and killing me.

I know I was probably wrong to raise 3rd's bet after the flop, but for SB to see a pre-flop raise and bet+raise after the flop with a 45 suited really sucks. And to top that off, I lost two hands before with a Q high flush (A on the board) to a K high - then two hands later get spanked with a 5 high flush. Arg.

I'm relatively new, so please let me know what I did wrong... besides the post flop re-raise. Should I have gone bigger pre-flop?

Also, I'm a little on tilt right now. Saturday I had AA, AA, AK, QQ, QQ all busted killing my BR. And folded many more paint-suited post flop hitting nothing. now my BR is 0 and I should probably just leave it that way and take breather for a while.
 
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gahdoh

gahdoh

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I'm assuming the SB had you covered here since you didn't state his stack size. Your PF raise to $1.25 was fine for the average .10/.25 table, although it can vary depending on how tight the game is. Some .10/.25 games betting .50c will scare everyone out of the pot immediately no matter what, while others $1.25 will actually encourage more players to enter the pot hoping to hit big with any 2 cards. Remember that the PF raises really need to be adjusted according to the table playing style.

This leads me to the first problem I see with the hand. I don't see any type casting of the SB in this hand. Is this player loose-aggressive or solid-tight? What reads do you have on him if any? What hands have you seen him show after the river? What percentage of flops has he seen over the course playing? Does the SB over defend his blinds? etc.

These are just a few things that can help you with pre and post flop decisions against certain opponents. The answer to basically every NLHE question is "It Depends." In this case it really does depend on the playing style of your opponent.

The second thing is the Stack-to-Pot Ratio (SPR) and how it should have affected your PF action. The pot was about $4 PF and you had about $15 remaining. So your SPR is about 3.75. For an over-pair against a loose opponent who will commit all-in with a worse hand more often than not, a SPR of 3-4 is actually really good.

The problem with how you played the hand was the min-raise. You effectively committed half of your stack with your min-raise leaving yourself open to the hard decision of committing the other half after the SB went all-in.

In this situation against a very loose opponent I would have probably gone all-in unless I was fairly certain the SB had a set or KK, AA, both which seem unlikely. By doing this you put the draws to the hard decision of calling with only a draw and you maximize your profit against an under pair like AJ.

The third potential issue I see is your bankroll management. You said you reduced your online deposit to zero in a very short time. May I ask how much you deposited initially? To play the .10/.25 tables ($25 buying) you should technically have about a $500 bankroll to handle the swings, while a 600+ would be even better. The 5% rule is always a good starting point for new online players.

Finally, you're playing on Bodog. I used to play the .10/.25 and the .50/1 there and finally got fed up with all the ridiculous plays that the donkeys made in those limits at that site. I recently moved to pokerstars and while the competition is definitely better my bad beats have significantly declined. Because honestly, going all-in for $16 in a .10/.25 game on a draw after calling a decent sized raise PF with 45s is fairly donkish. So I definitely have sympathy for you playing against the Bodog bunch.

In any case, definitely take a break if you lost your entire BR and perhaps try playing smaller tables to accommodate it in the future.
 
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K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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SB $18.80

1) Playing Style - I hadn't been on the table long, so I wasn't real familiar with their playing style.

2) (see below) Being that they saw a PF and then went all-in against a bet/raise, I'm guessing they probably would have seen my all-in. Also, I was hoping the reaise would've scared any smaller (like his) hands away. But I do see what you mean, I should've thought about the fact that $8 would pot commit me, so probably all-in or fold at that point(?).

The problem with how you played the hand was the min-raise. You effectively committed half of your stack with your min-raise leaving yourself open to the hard decision of committing the other half after the SB went all-in.

In this situation against a very loose opponent I would have probably gone all-in unless I was fairly certain the SB had a set or KK, AA, both which seem unlikely. By doing this you put the draws to the hard decision of calling with only a draw and you maximize your profit against an under pair like AJ.

3) BR - I deposited $20 a couple of weeks ago and grew it sat around there on $.05/$.10 tables, so I moved up. In moving up to $.10/$.25, I grew it to $160 quickly... and with several bad hands lost it quickly.

Last) Agreed, I've had/seen tooo many bad beats on BD. I recently loaded PS and will more than likely give that a try next. Again I will start with $20 and try to grow it. I notice they have smaller $.01/$.02 tables which are probably a good starting point with $20?
 
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gahdoh

gahdoh

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SB $18.80
1) Playing Style - I hadn't been on the table long, so I wasn't real familiar with their playing style.

Against an unknown opponent against whom you have no book I would definitely fold in this scenario. Sure, you know he played cheese, but he could just as easily have been holding rockets. Always make sure you size up the table for the first 2-3 laps and play hands cautiously.

2) (see below) Being that they saw a PF and then went all-in against a bet/raise, I'm guessing they probably would have seen my all-in.
Maybe, but in NLHE it is always better to be the one putting your opponent to the tough decision for all his chips. All-in against this hand here also will pay off in the long run since that flush only hits about 1 in 4 times. The 3 other misses you profit.

Remember though that the all-in here is really based upon your read of the opponent (ex. loose-aggressive or solid-tight). Against someone who has played 1 hand in the last 5 laps, which was AK suited, you definitely fold against. A player who has been in 99% of the flops and raised every time you almost definitely go all-in against. These are extremes, but you get the point.

Also, I was hoping the reaise would've scared any smaller (like his) hands away. But I do see what you mean, I should've thought about the fact that $8 would pot commit me, so probably all-in or fold at that point(?).
Your fold equity here doesn't appear very good. You got a smooth call pre-flop and a huge bet post flop. The only hands you're scaring away are pure bluffs, which seem unlikely in this scenario. You are correct, you have two options, fold or commit.

3) BR - I deposited $20 a couple of weeks ago and grew it sat around there on $.05/$.10 tables, so I moved up. In moving up to $.10/$.25, I grew it to $160 quickly... and with several bad hands lost it quickly.

Last) Agreed, I've had/seen tooo many bad beats on BD. I recently loaded PS and will more than likely give that a try next. Again I will start with $20 and try to grow it. I notice they have smaller $.01/$.02 tables which are probably a good starting point with $20?

My personal opinion is that the minimum deposit of $20 won't work at any micro limit table for the sole purpose of how poor the play is. Bad beats are bound to happen and you need a sufficient BR to support it. I would at the very least deposit $50 and play the .01/.02 tables at pokerstars. You would be risking 10% of your BR at the start, which is still too much, but doable.

Also pokerstars has a 100% bonus up to 50 bucks. So deposit 50 and get a 50 bonus after a month or two of playing the micro tables.

Best of luck in either case :)
 
K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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Thanks for the input Gahdoh, much appreciated.

The $20 for me is because this is more of a learning/entertainment for me right now. Losing $20/week or so isn't bad. Losing $50/week and the wife would shoot me :)

Like I said, I was able to grow the original $20 to $160. My problem this weekend was the "they got me there so I'll go in for another $25 and get it back." I need to learn to take a bad beat, walk away and come back tomorrow with a fresh head.
 
A

alan1983

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Theres several things wrong in the way youre thinking about the hand.

1st, after you raised, you said (i should have folded). Why is that?

1- You shouldnt be results oriented.

2- You were ahead on flop, so even knowing his hand and the result, you were a favorite on flop therefore it was correct to raise. And yes, raise more.

3- the pot wasnt 16$. It was way more.

Well, you said youre on a learning curve, but maybe you should play lower limits within your bankroll, because if youre gonna tilt everytime someone sucks out on u, youre gonna keep losing your bankroll everytime.

Its not the bad hands that are killing you, its your reaction to them and attitude towards it.
 
K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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Theres several things wrong in the way youre thinking about the hand.

1st, after you raised, you said (i should have folded). Why is that?

1- You shouldnt be results oriented.

2- You were ahead on flop, so even knowing his hand and the result, you were a favorite on flop therefore it was correct to raise. And yes, raise more.

3- the pot wasnt 16$. It was way more.

Well, you said youre on a learning curve, but maybe you should play lower limits within your bankroll, because if youre gonna tilt everytime someone sucks out on u, youre gonna keep losing your bankroll everytime.

Its not the bad hands that are killing you, its your reaction to them and attitude towards it.


Very good advice, thanks!
 
T

TheReaper

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I agree with everything gahdoh said, that's a great response.

I would agree about the raise on the flop. This hand is certainly dependant on a read, but if you're going to go to $8 on the flop, my opinion is you might as well shove. My thought here is, if you only go $8, what happens if they both call and a blank hits on the turn? Now you can only bet $7 into a big pot and it won't scare them. Either push or fold on the flop. If you push and lose, so be it, it happens.

On a side note, what is it with these people shoving with flush draws lately? I play on fulltilt, never been on bodog, and I see the same thing. All ins with just the flush draw like they are the best hand ever. Of course the perception is, the key word there is perception, that they hit so often it's a profitable play, which in reality it's not. Still aggravating non the less.
 
S

Seneku

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I agree with everything gahdoh said, that's a great response.

I would agree about the raise on the flop. This hand is certainly dependant on a read, but if you're going to go to $8 on the flop, my opinion is you might as well shove. My thought here is, if you only go $8, what happens if they both call and a blank hits on the turn? Now you can only bet $7 into a big pot and it won't scare them. Either push or fold on the flop. If you push and lose, so be it, it happens.

On a side note, what is it with these people shoving with flush draws lately? I play on fulltilt, never been on bodog, and I see the same thing. All ins with just the flush draw like they are the best hand ever. Of course the perception is, the key word there is perception, that they hit so often it's a profitable play, which in reality it's not. Still aggravating non the less.

If your opponent has fold equity and you have one or preferably 2 overcards or some other added draw, it's really not that bad. Calling a shove or shoving with 2 undercards+flushdraw is indeed a pretty poor play imo.
 
brown110

brown110

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There was no reason for you to fold. If someone is gonna call you down with 2 undercards and a flush draw, youre gonna win that hand about 70% of the time after the flop. If you just keep getting your money in on these situations you'll be fine. You can't control the cards, and as long as you make the right play, if someone sucks out on you don't let it linger too long.

And btw... go Texans. :)
 
K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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Ugh, just reloaded $20, sat down with $5,

My Pocket: :kc4: :ks4:

flop: :3c4: :2d4: :7h4:

pre-flop raises makes pot $2.35 ($.05/$.10)

I go all-in for $4.30 not seeing anything scary

They call and show: :10c4: :qc4:

ME: happy

Turn: :4c4:
River: :9c4:

ME: Not so happy
 
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K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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Next:

My Pocket: :9h4: :9s4:

flop: :5c4: :2c4: :9c4:

pre-flop raises makes pot $1.20 ($.05/$.10)

I go all-in for $1.40

They call and show: :ah4: :kd4:

ME: Happy

Turn: :3c4:
River: :4s4:

Me: Getting REALLY tired of suckouts!
 
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K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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Next: slightly tilted

sit down with $2.00 ($.05/$.10)

My Pocket: :7s4: :7d4:

Someone raises to $.90 - being tilted - re-raise all in ($2.00)

2 callers who end up all-in for a 3 way

They show:
:kh4: :ks4:
:js4: :ah4:

Me: Accept the defeat of the KK

Flop: :7h4: :8c4: :9d4:

Me: Happy about the trips

Turn: :6d4:

Me: Still good

River: :10h4:

The JackAce with the off suit knocks out me and the KK
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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My advice:
a) Post in bad beats forum
b) Don't complain when people to get all their money in against you while you're ahead
 
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