$4 NLHE Full Ring: TPTK gets raised oop on a safe river

Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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Ok, I disagree, no point in arguing it further. I prefer to c/r the flop to get value from hands he c-bets and may continue with such as flush draws, AQ and JTs, that he probably would flat with if you lead or fold them. You prefer to lead and get value that way, but the problem I see is that worse hands might not call.

When you make a bet with a value hand, you want hands to call and not to fold.

When you make a bet with air you want a fold and not a call.

We have a value hand, so we want a call.

Now you say that if we lead worse hands might not call, so why would these same hands call a CR?

The only reason to CR is when you have a hand so strong that you can get value by CR or when you have air and think he would flat a lead but fold to a CR.

CR to take the pot down now AKA fold out everything you beat is wrong, you are loosing value.

People seem to think the idea in poker is to blow people off draws, it isnt, its to bet as big as possible so that people call. What you have to bear in mind here is that there are only a few draws available and only a couple of legtinmate made hands you beat, so you do not have a hand so strong that you can CR and get value.

We have a value hand so bluffing with it is stupid.

In your example we are getting value from AQ by CR (second pair??) are you serious? We would be lucky to keep KT in to a CR and as for these FDs there are exactly 2 combos in his range.
 
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ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

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When you make a bet with a value hand, you want hands to call and not to fold.

When you make a bet with air you want a fold and not a call.

We have a value hand, so we want a call.

Now you say that if we lead worse hands might not call, so why would these same hands call a CR?

The only reason to CR is when you have a hand so strong that you can get value by CR or when you have air and think he would flat a lead but fold to a CR.

CR to take the pot down now AKA fold out everything you beat is wrong, you are loosing value.

People seem to think the idea in poker is to blow people off draws, it isnt, its to bet as big as possible so that people call. What you have to bear in mind here is that there are only a few draws available and only a couple of legtinmate made hands you beat, so you do not have a hand so strong that you can CR and get value.

We have a value hand so bluffing with it is stupid.

In your example we are getting value from AQ by CR (second pair??) are you serious? We would be lucky to keep KT in to a CR and as for these FDs there are exactly 2 combos in his range.
This is all I'm talking about. He's a habitual c-bettor. We lead and he hasn't hit he folds: we win the money in the pot pre. We check, he bets, we raise, he can either fold/call/raise, but we've gained an extra bet that we wouldn't have put in had we led out. There are at least 3 FD's he can have ATdd, AJdd and JTdd, and we are only have 51% vs these 3 hands, even though admittedly he can have much more.
Check/ calling also gains another bet too, and may be a profitable line to take.
 
rssurfer54

rssurfer54

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I think this whole thread just proves that we should 3bet pre :)
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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ATdd, AJdd and JTdd, and we are only have 51% vs these 3 hands, even though admittedly he can have much more.


He cannot have much more, he isnt raising 67s 34s t8s 97s etc etc he also cant have any suited king or queen

JTd is ahead so betting to get a call form JTd is like betting KK to get a call from AA!!

If he folds to your CR, well done you folded out a hand you were beating!

If he calls, you cannot bet the turn and you probably cant call his turn bet either.

I think the problem is you are trying to be too tricky, you are checking to induce a bluff from 66 then raising to charge one or two draws whilst blowing him off 66 and if you get to the turn, you will find that the CR was so increadibly thin that you cant bet the turn for value and are basically hoping he then bluffs the turn so you can call that.

If this were BB vs BTN, yes you can CR for value, but its an EP raise from a guy who plays 10% overall and this flop hits his range and no there are not a lot of FD in it.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

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Ok point taken. If he has 66 though he's not gonna put anything else in anyways after we lead/call/raise flop.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Ok point taken. If he has 66 though he's not gonna put anything else in anyways after we lead/call/raise flop.

No, obviously when we lead we blow him off 66

but he will call with a FD, a gs, KT,KJ, AQ, QJ. He will raise most of his sets and KQ (so we can fold or get to the turn against a range that contains less sets and 2pair as he didnt raise)

Then we have to play the turn. Can we bet for value? Can we c/c or do we c/f? so we look at his range, the reason we probably cant bet is his GS, AQ QJ hands probably fold but maybe he bluffs his 66 there and bets his KJ for value, plus we can reduce his AA/KQ/sets combos a little.. its villian dependent.

Now on the river we probably cant call. He just isnt likely to bluff enough, nor have enough hands in his range to do it with, nor be value betting with worse!

The reason to CR with a value hand is when you have a hand that is way ahead of his calling range plus he is likely to bet if you check, so you firstly get a bet from his air and then a call from a range you beat. Here you may well get the bet from his air, but wont be against a range you beat if he calls.

You have a value hand, so you cant bluff here.
 
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